cero2k wrote: ↑Jul 28th, '20, 11:08
Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Jul 28th, '20, 08:59
I don't know what the point of having a second title in the men's singles division is if works the same as all of the others... which is a question AEW should have answered before making a new title. And let's not pretend that the other titles care about the records. If they did, MJF would have gotten a title shot long ago.
And those matches didn't put Kingston, Starks, and Kiss over. They lost, and were no more popular afterwards than they were coming in. If AEW didn't do matches so evenly on such a frequent basis then maybe you could argue that, but they do, and thus when Excalibur says "5 used to b Alan Angels, who had a competitive match with Kenny Omega," most people responded by saying "huh? When did that happen?" Similarly, no one cared about Sonny Kiss any more after this loss to Cody than they did before. Ditto for Quen, and Starks and everyone else.
I'd rather not have the Suck Up To The Network Championship in the first place, but if we're going to have it, I'd like it to feel like you actually have to accomplish something in order to earn a shot at it. Otherwise, the only getting over is Cody, who gets to defend his title more than Moxley while hurting the product by muddying the babyface/heel dynamics even worse than they already are.
And if you don't want to use the records for this then you at least need to have
some mechanism so it doesn't feel like all you have to do to get a title shot is be the first one by the entrance way. Do some sort of four-way #1 contendership match or battle royale on Dark every week.
But you're asking that it worked the same as the others and arguing that it's shit because it doesn't at the moment.
What I'm asking is that it works in some logical manner. The rankings and records make the most sense, as that is the theoretically established way that things in AEW work.
You countered by saying that it shouldn't use the records and rankings because it wouldn't make sense for it to work like all of the other titles. I'm pointing out that the records and ranking really aren't used in determining contenders for the other titles, and therefore your defense of why it shouldn't work with the records and rankings is invalid.
cero2k wrote: ↑Jul 28th, '20, 11:08
And just because not all wrestlers with the better win/loss records are getting title shots, doesn't mean they're not used,
Yes, people who have the best records can still be used and not get their shots. The problem, however, is when it happens on such a consistent basis as to make the rankings worthless.
Since
Double Or Noting 2020, the top five pretty much every week has included: MJF, Lance Archer, Brian Cage, Brodie Lee, and Chris Jericho, and almost always in that exact order. Of those men, the only one of them who has received a title shot in that time (which is two months at this point) is Brian Cage, and he wasn't granted a title shot because he was ranked so highly; he was granted a title shot because he won a match that earned him a title shot. What f*cking use are the ranking, then?
cero2k wrote: ↑Jul 28th, '20, 11:08
MJF will get his title shot when the time is right for him to do so, when the story mandates, he's been busy with other feuds
Is he, though? There was definitely time between when he came back after being away at the beginning of COVID and when his feud with Jungle Boy started for him to have been booked in a title shot. Hell, he was more deserving that Brodie Lee and yet AEW booked him vs. Jungle Boy for
Double Or Nothing 2020 before they had started to feud, and that was well before Moxley had a title defense scheduled for that show, either. Why wasn't it booked then?
This idea that MJF " will get his title shot when the time is right for him to do so, when the story mandates" is not a valid kayfabe excuse. You have to come up with and explain to the audience a reason for why MJF is not getting his title shot.
And even if he
is feuding with someone else, that's not really an excuse. Are you telling me you don't think that if MJF was given a choice between a title shot and another match with Jungle Boy he would pick the match with Jungle Boy? Even if he's worried about Jungle Boy interfering, he could just complain that Jungle Boy interfered afterwards, and management should give him another title shot. But I don't think he's even worried about Jungle Boy interfering, because if he was, he wouldn't be bringing up the fact that he has the best record in the company and should be getting a title shot.
Good booking will allow someone to do more than one thing at once. "Guy X is feuding with Guy Y, therefore they can only do things that involve the other" is exactly how WWE thinks, and it is a big part of what has made their TV shows feel so repetitive and boring over the past five or six years.
cero2k wrote: ↑Jul 28th, '20, 11:08
Even UFC books title matches against guys lower than the #2 in the rankings.
Comparing MMA to wrestling in this regard is difficult because it's been established that you can wrestle every week, and with an MMA fight, that's not really true, so they have to get the champ and challenger on the same cycle. And even then, I do find it silly when someone who isn't the highest-ranked non-injured challenger gets a title shot. There is no reason not to hold off on the champion's next fight until you can book him against the top healthy contender.
cero2k wrote: ↑Jul 28th, '20, 11:08
If it's always the #2 ranking, then it just becomes a conveyor belt, processing people with not emotion at all.
And it's up to the booker to find a way for it to not be emotionless while still making sense (for example, make sure you've got a compelling title shot story with everyone before you bring them up to #1). And if you're not able to do that, DON'T HAVE RANKINGS! It's that simple.
cero2k wrote: ↑Jul 28th, '20, 11:08
Didn't put Kingston and Starks over!? Are you kidding me? Kingston was a SUPERSTAR last week! Motherfucker was trending nationwide last week for a promo and a match, before this his career highlight was winning a title in CHIKARA of all places and being on Impact for a while. Starks got himself a contract on a national televised promotion based on answering the open challenge. These open challenges have been a great way to showcase a lot of guys, both from the company and outside the company. And putting Cody over IS a positive thing.
Trending on Twitter, was he?
Kevin Steen wrote:"I was trending worldwide on Twitter once. And then I looked in my wallet, and there was no money in there."
And yeah. I think Eddie Kingston had a pretty good career before he went on AEW and trended on f*cking Twitter. You think IMPACT is the #2 highlight of Kingston's career other than a title run in CHIKARA? DUDE... never mind all of the other great stuff he did in CHIKARA, you're completely ignoring one of the most famous and heated feuds in the history of indy wrestling (with Chris Hero).
He didn't get "put over." It was Cody who got to look tough for going into the thumbtacks for no reason other than to go into thumbtacks on national TV. If this helped him at all, it's because he got himself over with an awesome promo, and if he's not signing a contract, that doesn't help AEW one f*cking bit, so don't tell me that "showcasing somebody from outside the company" is a positive thing. And even showcasing somebody inside the company doesn't help too much if you don't follow up on it. We've seen that time and time again in WWE.
Starks got himself a contract, yeah, but I didn't hear anyone coming away from that match saying "WOW! They should really sign this Ricky Starks guy!" So at worst, they sign him and don't use him much, and at best, they do use him (and they seem to be happy to do so) and everyone wonders why the f*ck they signed this guy when there are tons of people who have been under contract for longer than him that they haven't don't sh*t with yet. Did you know that AEW now has OVER EIGHTY PEOPLE ON THEIR ROSTER (not including any managers)?
I'm not saying that putting Cody over is a bad thing. I'm saying that it needs to be done in a way that:
1) Doesn't get in the way of other things, and right now he's making Moxley kind of look like sh*t for not defending his title more when there seem to be some worthy challengers while Cody is defending his belt all the time, even no one has done anything to earn a title shot
2) Does it in a way that actually
helps the product. It's
bad for the product for a top singles wrestler to have so much trouble putting away an undercard tag team wrestler who is coming into the match with an injury (the match with Quen went longer than Cody's match with a completely healthy Eddie Kingston).
cero2k wrote: ↑Jul 28th, '20, 11:08
And I disagree, it's an "Open Challenge", not a quick scheme to pretend 3-ways give you title matches.
You know what the guy who won the "quick scheme to pretend 3-ways give you title matches" has done that the guy getting the title shot via open challenge hasn't? WON A WRESTLING MATCH, which is what it's all about. I don't like just one win getting you a title shot unless there are a large number of people in the match, but it's better to have to win one match that to have a promotion that is just willing to give out title shots to people who haven't done sh*t, while simultaneously doing NOTHING to actually build up any potential challengers.