Day-to-Day Quote Topic

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Re: Day-to-Day Quote Topic

Post by cero2k » May 27th, '20, 08:22

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Re: Day-to-Day Quote Topic

Post by cero2k » May 27th, '20, 17:59

Tanahashi getting shooty

Sports Illustrated interviewed Hiroshi Tanahashi about NJPW not running shows during the COVID-19 pandemic, saying that running shows now “presents the wrong image of professional wrestling to society and would deal a black eye to the industry that might still remain even after the pandemic ends.”
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Re: Day-to-Day Quote Topic

Post by Big Red Machine » Jun 3rd, '20, 00:24

Sooo.... this came out today:




I really hope D'Amore books an angle where the top heel gets paranoid about these WWE guys coming to take everyone's job and tries to get everyone else to band together against them. Again. It's been fifteen years. It's okay to redo it.
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Re: Day-to-Day Quote Topic

Post by Big Red Machine » Jun 3rd, '20, 19:25

Hold #712: ARM BAR!

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Re: Day-to-Day Quote Topic

Post by cero2k » Jun 7th, '20, 21:14

Big Red Machine wrote:
Jun 3rd, '20, 00:24
Sooo.... this came out today:




I really hope D'Amore books an angle where the top heel gets paranoid about these WWE guys coming to take everyone's job and tries to get everyone else to band together against them. Again. It's been fifteen years. It's okay to redo it.
It's virtually this year's storyline with Moose, but he's fighting old TNA wrestlers trying to come back now that Impact has better management, that's why he crowned himself the TNA Champion. It's 2020 and fucking Chase Stevens is wrestling on TV
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Re: Day-to-Day Quote Topic

Post by cero2k » Jun 7th, '20, 21:15

Big Red Machine wrote:
Jun 3rd, '20, 19:25
gonna watch this later, I've already been following a pandemic D&D game on youtube already.
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Re: Day-to-Day Quote Topic

Post by cero2k » Jun 14th, '20, 15:06

FROM WON June 12th
There has been a lot of talk in recent weeks regarding the future of Evolve and WWE. It’s not a secret Evolve had major financial issues and the canceling of WrestleMania week was catastrophic to them. They’ve been quiet, having not said anything. There were reports of them selling their tape library and pretty much everything to WWE but when asked, neither Evolve nor WWE would confirm or deny the story
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Re: Day-to-Day Quote Topic

Post by Big Red Machine » Jun 14th, '20, 16:30

cero2k wrote:
Jun 14th, '20, 15:06
FROM WON June 12th
There has been a lot of talk in recent weeks regarding the future of Evolve and WWE. It’s not a secret Evolve had major financial issues and the canceling of WrestleMania week was catastrophic to them. They’ve been quiet, having not said anything. There were reports of them selling their tape library and pretty much everything to WWE but when asked, neither Evolve nor WWE would confirm or deny the story
I'm... fine with this at this point. In hindsight, there has been a lot of flailing around for direction going on since that seven-month period in 2018 where they lost Lee, Riddle, Zack, Thatcher, Tracy Williams, Jaka, Dickinson, Yehi, Stokely Hathaway, Dominic Garrini, Jason Kincaid, The End, and Saieve Al Sabah, Jarek 1-20, plus had Janela come in only for him to do down with a big injury, too (and they also lost their access to WALTER as an independent talent with no restrictions, just as they were ramping up to do something with him).
That wasn't just most of the top of the card, but also a good chunk of the people who were being built up to be that next generation and the people who were being brought in and built up to be the generation after that.

At this point, I'll be happy if Hunter just lets Gabe be one of the NXT assistant bookers a la Adam Pearce on 205 Live during its glory days.
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Re: Day-to-Day Quote Topic

Post by cero2k » Jun 15th, '20, 07:53

Big Red Machine wrote:
Jun 14th, '20, 16:30


I'm... fine with this at this point. In hindsight, there has been a lot of flailing around for direction going on since that seven-month period in 2018 where they lost Lee, Riddle, Zack, Thatcher, Tracy Williams, Jaka, Dickinson, Yehi, Stokely Hathaway, Dominic Garrini, Jason Kincaid, The End, and Saieve Al Sabah, Jarek 1-20, plus had Janela come in only for him to do down with a big injury, too (and they also lost their access to WALTER as an independent talent with no restrictions, just as they were ramping up to do something with him).
That wasn't just most of the top of the card, but also a good chunk of the people who were being built up to be that next generation and the people who were being brought in and built up to be the generation after that.

At this point, I'll be happy if Hunter just lets Gabe be one of the NXT assistant bookers a la Adam Pearce on 205 Live during its glory days.
so you rather WWE eat up (arguably) your favorite promotion of the last like 5 years (and likely kill WWN too). You and me, we'll never be on the same page
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Re: Day-to-Day Quote Topic

Post by KILLdozer » Jun 15th, '20, 16:08

cero2k wrote:
Jun 15th, '20, 07:53
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jun 14th, '20, 16:30


I'm... fine with this at this point. In hindsight, there has been a lot of flailing around for direction going on since that seven-month period in 2018 where they lost Lee, Riddle, Zack, Thatcher, Tracy Williams, Jaka, Dickinson, Yehi, Stokely Hathaway, Dominic Garrini, Jason Kincaid, The End, and Saieve Al Sabah, Jarek 1-20, plus had Janela come in only for him to do down with a big injury, too (and they also lost their access to WALTER as an independent talent with no restrictions, just as they were ramping up to do something with him).
That wasn't just most of the top of the card, but also a good chunk of the people who were being built up to be that next generation and the people who were being brought in and built up to be the generation after that.

At this point, I'll be happy if Hunter just lets Gabe be one of the NXT assistant bookers a la Adam Pearce on 205 Live during its glory days.
so you rather WWE eat up (arguably) your favorite promotion of the last like 5 years (and likely kill WWN too). You and me, we'll never be on the same page
He's still talking about Gabe Got Dang Sapolsky...🤷‍♂️
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Re: Day-to-Day Quote Topic

Post by Big Red Machine » Jun 15th, '20, 20:06

cero2k wrote:
Jun 15th, '20, 07:53
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jun 14th, '20, 16:30


I'm... fine with this at this point. In hindsight, there has been a lot of flailing around for direction going on since that seven-month period in 2018 where they lost Lee, Riddle, Zack, Thatcher, Tracy Williams, Jaka, Dickinson, Yehi, Stokely Hathaway, Dominic Garrini, Jason Kincaid, The End, and Saieve Al Sabah, Jarek 1-20, plus had Janela come in only for him to do down with a big injury, too (and they also lost their access to WALTER as an independent talent with no restrictions, just as they were ramping up to do something with him).
That wasn't just most of the top of the card, but also a good chunk of the people who were being built up to be that next generation and the people who were being brought in and built up to be the generation after that.

At this point, I'll be happy if Hunter just lets Gabe be one of the NXT assistant bookers a la Adam Pearce on 205 Live during its glory days.
so you rather WWE eat up (arguably) your favorite promotion of the last like 5 years (and likely kill WWN too). You and me, we'll never be on the same page
EVOLVE in 2015-2018 was one of my favorite runs of any promotion in the past five years (it's up there with the post-Enzo, pre-Wednesday Night Wars 205 Live, and and the general run of NXT), but the past two years of EVOLVE have been inconsistent at best and sad at worst. It's like ECW in the year 2000.
I still watch it because:
1. I'm paying for the library anyway
2. I like a fair amount of the wrestlers there
3. I find it interesting to see how Gabe uses the NXT talent he gets (Arturo Ruas was a nobody in NXT, but became one of my favorite workers of the course of his EVOLVE run)
4. I still firmly believe in Gabe's ability to book something interesting. The problem has been him getting crushed under the combination of NXT constantly pulling or signing people and by NXT's restrictions on who can do jobs.
5. I like pro wrestling, and particularly the presentation that EVOLVE had aspired to be

But the fact of the matter is that at this point, EVOLVE was stuck flailing around, and constantly losing talent- mostly to NXT, but sometimes to AEW, ROH, and others, and Gabe just couldn't get anything done. At this point it's pretty much a mercy killing. I feel bad for Curt Stallion and Stephen Wolf and Leon Ruff and Brandi Lauren and Josh Briggs and J.D. Drake, but the cream will rise to the top, and I'm sure I'll be seeing those guys in ROH or AEW soon enough. And maybe if enough guys I like from EVOLVE start to go there, I'll start watching TNA or MLW with my new free five hours each month.

Am I sad about it? Yes. But I've been sad about it for a year at this point.
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Re: Day-to-Day Quote Topic

Post by cero2k » Jun 15th, '20, 20:27

Big Red Machine wrote:
Jun 15th, '20, 20:06

But the fact of the matter is that at this point, EVOLVE was stuck flailing around, and constantly losing talent- mostly to NXT, but sometimes to AEW, ROH, and others, and Gabe just couldn't get anything done. At this point it's pretty much a mercy killing. I feel bad for Curt Stallion and Stephen Wolf and Leon Ruff and Brandi Lauren and Josh Briggs and J.D. Drake, but the cream will rise to the top, and I'm sure I'll be seeing those guys in ROH or AEW soon enough. And maybe if enough guys I like from EVOLVE start to go there, I'll start watching TNA or MLW with my new free five hours each month.

Am I sad about it? Yes. But I've been sad about it for a year at this point.
that's what I don't agree with this whole situation, to me it's not a mercy killing when the one doing the killing is the one that hurt them the most throughout those two years. Gabe always thrived with ROH, WWE, and TNA there on the outside and losing talent and sharing talent, and what not. It's until Gabe sold his soul to WWE that things went down, and now WWE is the one to give the final strike. It sucks, EVOLVE gave so much to WWE in the last years and when EVOLVE struggles, where is dear old uncle Hunter to not just give Gabe a job, but help the whole EVOLVE family?
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Re: Day-to-Day Quote Topic

Post by Big Red Machine » Jun 15th, '20, 23:10

cero2k wrote:
Jun 15th, '20, 20:27
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jun 15th, '20, 20:06

But the fact of the matter is that at this point, EVOLVE was stuck flailing around, and constantly losing talent- mostly to NXT, but sometimes to AEW, ROH, and others, and Gabe just couldn't get anything done. At this point it's pretty much a mercy killing. I feel bad for Curt Stallion and Stephen Wolf and Leon Ruff and Brandi Lauren and Josh Briggs and J.D. Drake, but the cream will rise to the top, and I'm sure I'll be seeing those guys in ROH or AEW soon enough. And maybe if enough guys I like from EVOLVE start to go there, I'll start watching TNA or MLW with my new free five hours each month.

Am I sad about it? Yes. But I've been sad about it for a year at this point.
that's what I don't agree with this whole situation, to me it's not a mercy killing when the one doing the killing is the one that hurt them the most throughout those two years. Gabe always thrived with ROH, WWE, and TNA there on the outside and losing talent and sharing talent, and what not. It's until Gabe sold his soul to WWE that things went down, and now WWE is the one to give the final strike. It sucks, EVOLVE gave so much to WWE in the last years and when EVOLVE struggles, where is dear old uncle Hunter to not just give Gabe a job, but help the whole EVOLVE family?

Uncle Hunter has been taking plenty of care of the EVOLVE family. Him giving Gabe a job let Gabe keep giving all of them jobs. Things were going down before Gabe sold his soul, or else he wouldn't have sold it. FloSlam was going to be a savior, but that turned out to be bullsh*t and Flo-Slam tried to screw them (and in the end did find a way to screw them for a while by putting the entire WWN library up to that point on their website for free).

Did losing Lee and Riddle (and Stokely) within a few months of each other hurt a lot? Yes. But it would have been a recoverable blow. They had recovered from losing Drew, Gargano, and Gulak all within six months, too. What wasn't recoverable was losing those two, and losing Zack to NJPW, Tracy to ROH, and Thatcher, Jaka, and Dickinson all to I guess just other indies, all at the same time. Did WWE eventually smother them to death? Yes. But they wouldn't have been alive to be smothered to death if not for their deal with WWE keeping them alive.


Gabe has (almost) always thrived creatively. Unfortunately, there hasn't been enough of a market for what he's been selling. If there was, he never would have gotten fired from ROH, Dragon Gate never would have pulled the plug on DGUSA, and EVOLVE wouldn't have been in a place where they needed help from WWE.
Gabe unfettered puts out a fantastic product. I've seen pretty much everything he has booked aside from a few years of DGUSA and EVOLVE, and 2007 FIP. His worst runs as a booker were when he was being forced to book certain things by RF in early ROH, and then when he was being smothered by WWE. But if the market for what you're selling isn't big enough, it doesn't matter. Look at 2010-early 2011 ROH. AMAZING stuff. But Pearce gets fired over the summer in large part because they didn't want to pay to fly him in from San Diego every weekend. Delirious takes over and also does a FANTASTIC job, even after quickly losing two of his biggest names (Tyler, Aries), and yet the money situation is getting so bad that Cary has to sell the company within a year (I don't remember if it was Cornette or Hagadorn, but one of them said that the only reason ROH kept putting on shows in 2011 is because Cary was negotiating with Sinclair, and that if there hadn't been a prospective buyer, Final Battle 2010 might have been the last show).

Unfortunately, great art doesn't always make a proportional amount of money. If f*cking eats me up inside that Delirious' horse-sh*t Bullet Club of Honor drew more people than Dragon, Joe, Nigel, Aries, Roddy, Davey, Eddie, Steen, Generico, Homicide, Jimmy, Tyler, Hero, Shelley, Cabana, Elgin ever did.

I don't blame WWE for EVOLVE's death. I blame wrestling fans who, for whatever their individual reasons might have been, never gave this awesome product a chance. I feel the same way about Gabe's ROH, and the ROH from the time Pearce finds his footing in early 2009 through the time when Cornette really starts to take over the booking in late 2011, and the awesome period of 205 Live when fans wouldn't watch this awesome product simply because they didn't like the fact that most of the crowd wasn't there or because they didn't know who these guys were or because they were wasting their time watching pointless New Japan "Road to..." shows.
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Re: Day-to-Day Quote Topic

Post by Big Red Machine » Jun 16th, '20, 01:13

There are claims going around that NJPW taped a secret episode of Lion's Break Project a few days ago, with both TJP and Tom Lawlor coming in.
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Re: Day-to-Day Quote Topic

Post by cero2k » Jun 16th, '20, 11:18

Big Red Machine wrote:
Jun 15th, '20, 23:10

I don't blame WWE for EVOLVE's death. I blame wrestling fans who, for whatever their individual reasons might have been, never gave this awesome product a chance. I feel the same way about Gabe's ROH, and the ROH from the time Pearce finds his footing in early 2009 through the time when Cornette really starts to take over the booking in late 2011, and the awesome period of 205 Live when fans wouldn't watch this awesome product simply because they didn't like the fact that most of the crowd wasn't there or because they didn't know who these guys were or because they were wasting their time watching pointless New Japan "Road to..." shows.
it's never the fan's fault for a business going under, if you're going under, you adapt or die. If you're not attracting people with your product, find a way to do it, Gabe's 'adapting' was hoping that WWE would take care of them and that WWE fans would care about the developmental's developmental.

It sucks to see yet another promotion die because of WWE, but if the fans don't care, I shouldn't care either at this point.
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Re: Day-to-Day Quote Topic

Post by Big Red Machine » Jun 16th, '20, 12:05

cero2k wrote:
Jun 16th, '20, 11:18
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jun 15th, '20, 23:10

I don't blame WWE for EVOLVE's death. I blame wrestling fans who, for whatever their individual reasons might have been, never gave this awesome product a chance. I feel the same way about Gabe's ROH, and the ROH from the time Pearce finds his footing in early 2009 through the time when Cornette really starts to take over the booking in late 2011, and the awesome period of 205 Live when fans wouldn't watch this awesome product simply because they didn't like the fact that most of the crowd wasn't there or because they didn't know who these guys were or because they were wasting their time watching pointless New Japan "Road to..." shows.
it's never the fan's fault for a business going under, if you're going under, you adapt or die. If you're not attracting people with your product, find a way to do it, Gabe's 'adapting' was hoping that WWE would take care of them and that WWE fans would care about the developmental's developmental.
You're not wrong that Gabe is ultimately responsible, but I absolutely can blame/be resentful of fans who didn't give the product a chance for stupid superficial reasons. So what if it's taking place in a nightclub or gym in front of 200 people. It's still pro wrestling and you're a wrestling fan, aren't you? So what if you don't know any of the wrestlers. You probably didn't know any of the wrestlers when you started watching WWE or WCW. That sort of thing.

I also don't think that it was the "development's developmental" thing that did the most damage so much as the booking constraints Gabe seemed to have been under with some of those guys, and the inconsistent access to the big draw stars (Hero, WALTER) so that he couldn't really put them in programs.
I also think that the way EVOLVE started to frame themselves wasn't good (as I've discussed often in my reviews), so there were mistakes made on EVOLVE's (and particularly Gabe's) part, but I do think that inconsistent access and booking constraints were what turned people off more.
cero2k wrote:
Jun 16th, '20, 11:18
It sucks to see yet another promotion die because of WWE,
I think this is an extremely simplistic take on it.
I think not getting publicity from Meltzer hurt them (certainly not proportional to their size, anyway).
I think the rise of New Japan hurt them A LOT (now you've got another promotion with awesome wrestlers and better production values pushing clean finishes). I
think ROH taking Scurrl and Ospreay before EVOLVE could really make a name with them hurt a lot more in hindsight than we all realized.
I think Bullet Club taking off hurt them not just by getting ROH a bunch of attention, but by doing so at a time when EVOLVE was poised to capitalize off of a bunch of ROH's recent dropped balls (Lee, Dijakovic, O'Reilly),and it effectively hid ROH's other f*ck-ups (Jay White, Lio Rush, the Cabinet/The Revolution) from a lot of fans who just wanted to chant "2 SWEET!" and weren't willing to look at things from a critical or storytelling perspective.
I think the general rise of streaming services hurt them by making so many other company's products more readily available.
I think Gabe investing in a bunch of productoon in equipment that FloSlam wanted and then FloSlam not holding up their end o the deal with any sort of promotion and very few attempts to recruit other promotions hurt them.
And yes, I think NXT- both in terms of taking their talent and in terms of being another hot and easily accessible promotion (and, unlike NJPW, all in English, which most of the Amero-Canadian fan-base speaks) with mostly clean finishes hurt them a lot.

To only blame WWE for EVOLVE's death is FAR too simplistic and ignores so much of the context of the beginning of their downward slide.
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Re: Day-to-Day Quote Topic

Post by Big Red Machine » Jun 16th, '20, 12:27

And it's not about "not caring." It's about the knowledge that as long as Gabe is involved in the wrestling business, there is a hope for a new ROH/EVOLVE to spring up, even if it's under the WWE banner. It's already happened once in the glory days of 205 Live.
An NXT where Hunter is the Eddie Graham/Bill Watts "here are the big show matches I want; you do the work and get me there" head booker with Gabe as his Dory Funk Jr./Ernie Ladd assistant is an NXT I would greatly look forward to. Ditto for an NXT where Hunter is Ric Flair just booking the world title program and/or main event scene, and Gabe is Kevin Sullivan and Jim Cornette booking everything else.
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Re: Day-to-Day Quote Topic

Post by cero2k » Jun 16th, '20, 13:54

Big Red Machine wrote:
Jun 16th, '20, 12:05
You're not wrong that Gabe is ultimately responsible, but I absolutely can blame/be resentful of fans who didn't give the product a chance for stupid superficial reasons. So what if it's taking place in a nightclub or gym in front of 200 people. It's still pro wrestling and you're a wrestling fan, aren't you? So what if you don't know any of the wrestlers. You probably didn't know any of the wrestlers when you started watching WWE or WCW. That sort of thing.

I also don't think that it was the "development's developmental" thing that did the most damage so much as the booking constraints Gabe seemed to have been under with some of those guys, and the inconsistent access to the big draw stars (Hero, WALTER) so that he couldn't really put them in programs.
I also think that the way EVOLVE started to frame themselves wasn't good (as I've discussed often in my reviews), so there were mistakes made on EVOLVE's (and particularly Gabe's) part, but I do think that inconsistent access and booking constraints were what turned people off more.
Or because Orange Cassidy uses weak kicks, or because Yoshihiko is a blow up doll, or because Chris Hero is doing slow motion spot, or because Joey Ryan uses his penis. We can't blame fans for not watching what they don't for their stupid reasons, to each their own really. Realistically, promotions have done great with smaller venues, less people, and sometimes shittier wrestlers. I'm not gonna blame you for not watching AJPW, especially not now a days with tons of wrestling out there.

I'll agree with the rest, I wouldn't say being "development's developmental" was the worse, but it was definitely a stigma that came about and no one really made a effort to change it.
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jun 16th, '20, 12:05
I think this is an extremely simplistic take on it.
I think not getting publicity from Meltzer hurt them (certainly not proportional to their size, anyway).
I think the rise of New Japan hurt them A LOT (now you've got another promotion with awesome wrestlers and better production values pushing clean finishes). I
think ROH taking Scurrl and Ospreay before EVOLVE could really make a name with them hurt a lot more in hindsight than we all realized.
I think Bullet Club taking off hurt them not just by getting ROH a bunch of attention, but by doing so at a time when EVOLVE was poised to capitalize off of a bunch of ROH's recent dropped balls (Lee, Dijakovic, O'Reilly),and it effectively hid ROH's other f*ck-ups (Jay White, Lio Rush, the Cabinet/The Revolution) from a lot of fans who just wanted to chant "2 SWEET!" and weren't willing to look at things from a critical or storytelling perspective.
I think the general rise of streaming services hurt them by making so many other company's products more readily available.
I think Gabe investing in a bunch of productoon in equipment that FloSlam wanted and then FloSlam not holding up their end o the deal with any sort of promotion and very few attempts to recruit other promotions hurt them.
And yes, I think NXT- both in terms of taking their talent and in terms of being another hot and easily accessible promotion (and, unlike NJPW, all in English, which most of the Amero-Canadian fan-base speaks) with mostly clean finishes hurt them a lot.

To only blame WWE for EVOLVE's death is FAR too simplistic and ignores so much of the context of the beginning of their downward slide.
Meltzer, New Japan, ROH, PWG, AEW, none of them are really obligated to think of EVOLVE when doing their business, if EVOLVE is hurt by their actions, then it's EVOLVE not doing better to compete or be relevant.
One example that I wanna point out is between PWG and EVOLVE's promoting. One of PWG's biggest tools to going big almost 10 years ago wasn't Meltzer, he actually started going AFTER it got big, and that tool was PWG"s preview videos, that is how a lot of people got to know PWG at first. I bring this up because after being in EVOLVE"s newsletter for years, even before you, I have NEVER seen EVOLVE footage. The only WWN i've seen was because I went out of my way to watch a show.

Ok, I accept that maybe WWE wasn't THE one to kill them, but they sure as hell didn't help EVOLVE grow like they probably promised Gabe 3 years ago, instead EVOLVE got used and it's 2020 and EVOLVE is still not in the network. WWE are still pieces of shit.
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Re: Day-to-Day Quote Topic

Post by Big Red Machine » Jun 16th, '20, 15:48

cero2k wrote:
Jun 16th, '20, 13:54
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jun 16th, '20, 12:05
You're not wrong that Gabe is ultimately responsible, but I absolutely can blame/be resentful of fans who didn't give the product a chance for stupid superficial reasons. So what if it's taking place in a nightclub or gym in front of 200 people. It's still pro wrestling and you're a wrestling fan, aren't you? So what if you don't know any of the wrestlers. You probably didn't know any of the wrestlers when you started watching WWE or WCW. That sort of thing.

I also don't think that it was the "development's developmental" thing that did the most damage so much as the booking constraints Gabe seemed to have been under with some of those guys, and the inconsistent access to the big draw stars (Hero, WALTER) so that he couldn't really put them in programs.
I also think that the way EVOLVE started to frame themselves wasn't good (as I've discussed often in my reviews), so there were mistakes made on EVOLVE's (and particularly Gabe's) part, but I do think that inconsistent access and booking constraints were what turned people off more.
Or because Orange Cassidy uses weak kicks, or because Yoshihiko is a blow up doll, or because Chris Hero is doing slow motion spot, or because Joey Ryan uses his penis. We can't blame fans for not watching what they don't for their stupid reasons, to each their own really. Realistically, promotions have done great with smaller venues, less people, and sometimes shittier wrestlers. I'm not gonna blame you for not watching AJPW, especially not now a days with tons of wrestling out there.

I'll agree with the rest, I wouldn't say being "development's developmental" was the worse, but it was definitely a stigma that came about and no one really made a effort to change it.
There is a difference between stylistic choices and silly reasons for not watching something like small crowd. I think that's a dumb reason to not watch a product. Not liking the style is a perfectly valid reason to not watch a product.
I actually feel like I should be making more of an effort to watch All Japan, but there is a language barrier there that I find it hard to overcome. That's also my main reason for not delving into Lucha (and particularly 90s AAA, which I've heard is fantastic and that Pena is up there as one of the all-time geniuses of the business). But for people who don't have a language barrier, I don't think it's that much of an investment (especially for something like 205 Live).
I don't think the "too much product" excuse applied back in 2015-2016. There was no AEW and no MLW, TNA had already chased most people off, wXw and the UK promotions weren't even close to easy to get a hold of, some of the more bnotable indies like Black Label Pro hadn't even started yet, and most indies hadn't started telling downloads yet and there was a lot less New Japan and NXT, too.
cero2k wrote:
Jun 16th, '20, 13:54
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jun 16th, '20, 12:05
I think this is an extremely simplistic take on it.
I think not getting publicity from Meltzer hurt them (certainly not proportional to their size, anyway).
I think the rise of New Japan hurt them A LOT (now you've got another promotion with awesome wrestlers and better production values pushing clean finishes). I
think ROH taking Scurrl and Ospreay before EVOLVE could really make a name with them hurt a lot more in hindsight than we all realized.
I think Bullet Club taking off hurt them not just by getting ROH a bunch of attention, but by doing so at a time when EVOLVE was poised to capitalize off of a bunch of ROH's recent dropped balls (Lee, Dijakovic, O'Reilly),and it effectively hid ROH's other f*ck-ups (Jay White, Lio Rush, the Cabinet/The Revolution) from a lot of fans who just wanted to chant "2 SWEET!" and weren't willing to look at things from a critical or storytelling perspective.
I think the general rise of streaming services hurt them by making so many other company's products more readily available.
I think Gabe investing in a bunch of productoon in equipment that FloSlam wanted and then FloSlam not holding up their end o the deal with any sort of promotion and very few attempts to recruit other promotions hurt them.
And yes, I think NXT- both in terms of taking their talent and in terms of being another hot and easily accessible promotion (and, unlike NJPW, all in English, which most of the Amero-Canadian fan-base speaks) with mostly clean finishes hurt them a lot.

To only blame WWE for EVOLVE's death is FAR too simplistic and ignores so much of the context of the beginning of their downward slide.
Meltzer, New Japan, ROH, PWG, AEW, none of them are really obligated to think of EVOLVE when doing their business, if EVOLVE is hurt by their actions, then it's EVOLVE not doing better to compete or be relevant.
One example that I wanna point out is between PWG and EVOLVE's promoting. One of PWG's biggest tools to going big almost 10 years ago wasn't Meltzer, he actually started going AFTER it got big, and that tool was PWG"s preview videos, that is how a lot of people got to know PWG at first. I bring this up because after being in EVOLVE"s newsletter for years, even before you, I have NEVER seen EVOLVE footage. The only WWN i've seen was because I went out of my way to watch a show.
They had the documentaries and they were putting them out on Social Media. They were doing a lot of the YouTube stuff first (remember that Jimmy Jacobs coming to EVOLVE teaser video?). I'll agree that their promoting wasn't the best, but it was no worse than ROH's or CZW's.

The thing with Dave is the way Dave talked PWG up. You can't tell me you don't think that drove DVD sales up for them, with Dave putting out LIVE ratings (which he never did for anyone else; he'd always wait to watch a show back on tape) so that there is "OMG EVERYTHING WAS SO AWESOME" buzz for weeks before the show. Every PWG show got a big write-up in the Observer, complete with star ratings, like it was a PPV. ROH only got that for PPVs and maybe Mania weekend. EVOLVE, CZW, CHIKARA, and so many others never got it, despite being bigger and more influential than PWG who were just doing super-indy sh*t with basically no storylines. Dave spending the six hours a month to watch EVOLVE and then write about it in his newsletter would have brought some spotlight to the product and could have convinced people to at least give it a try, but he never did. And for a guy who is supposed to be the wrestling journalist, there is no excuse to not cover promotions as big as EVOLVE and CHIKARA were at that point.

cero2k wrote:
Jun 16th, '20, 13:54
Ok, I accept that maybe WWE wasn't THE one to kill them, but they sure as hell didn't help EVOLVE grow like they probably promised Gabe 3 years ago, instead EVOLVE got used and it's 2020 and EVOLVE is still not in the network. WWE are still pieces of shit.
Do we know that the Network promise was ever actually made, or was that just internet speculation. It's not just EVOLVE with that one, either. We've been hearing rumors for YEARS about PROGRESS, ICW, and EVOLVE (and, to a lesser extent, OTT and wXw) and aside from the one EVOLVE show last summer, it has never happened.

We don't even know that they promised to help EVOLVE grow. Why would they want EVOLVE to grow that much if they're taking NXT on tour, and when EVOLVE runs a lot of shows in Florida, which would make them competition with the NXT B loop? A much more likely scenario to me is that they promised to help EVOLVE merely stay alive, like with ECW, and Gabe has now come to the point where he's making the same decision that Heyman did in 2001 and Cornette did in 1995 where it's just not worth the effort and stress to continue.
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Re: Day-to-Day Quote Topic

Post by cero2k » Jun 18th, '20, 14:01

Big Red Machine wrote:
Jun 16th, '20, 15:48
There is a difference between stylistic choices and silly reasons for not watching something like small crowd. I think that's a dumb reason to not watch a product. Not liking the style is a perfectly valid reason to not watch a product.
I actually feel like I should be making more of an effort to watch All Japan, but there is a language barrier there that I find it hard to overcome. That's also my main reason for not delving into Lucha (and particularly 90s AAA, which I've heard is fantastic and that Pena is up there as one of the all-time geniuses of the business). But for people who don't have a language barrier, I don't think it's that much of an investment (especially for something like 205 Live).
I don't think the "too much product" excuse applied back in 2015-2016. There was no AEW and no MLW, TNA had already chased most people off, wXw and the UK promotions weren't even close to easy to get a hold of, some of the more bnotable indies like Black Label Pro hadn't even started yet, and most indies hadn't started telling downloads yet and there was a lot less New Japan and NXT, too.
To me they're the same, both are judging a whole promotion/roster/product based on a little detail. I can understand judging a style like Kaiju Big Battel that changes the whole product, but judging a whole company over one wrestler/division is a weak excuse. Likewise, I agree that it's dumb to judge for production value, but it's the most common reason people give over not wanting to jump from WWE to indies, it's ALWAYS that, just like language barrier is for japanese or spanish speaking promotions. There are resources out there.
Personally, there is NOTHING a promotion can to stylistically for me to say I won't give them a chance (except being a greedy corporate machine), but that doesn't mean that I'll watch everything just because it's there either. Some people are raving about 2AW and Freedoms right now, but I'm not likely to go out of my way to watch it.
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jun 16th, '20, 15:48
They had the documentaries and they were putting them out on Social Media. They were doing a lot of the YouTube stuff first (remember that Jimmy Jacobs coming to EVOLVE teaser video?). I'll agree that their promoting wasn't the best, but it was no worse than ROH's or CZW's.

The thing with Dave is the way Dave talked PWG up. You can't tell me you don't think that drove DVD sales up for them, with Dave putting out LIVE ratings (which he never did for anyone else; he'd always wait to watch a show back on tape) so that there is "OMG EVERYTHING WAS SO AWESOME" buzz for weeks before the show. Every PWG show got a big write-up in the Observer, complete with star ratings, like it was a PPV. ROH only got that for PPVs and maybe Mania weekend. EVOLVE, CZW, CHIKARA, and so many others never got it, despite being bigger and more influential than PWG who were just doing super-indy sh*t with basically no storylines. Dave spending the six hours a month to watch EVOLVE and then write about it in his newsletter would have brought some spotlight to the product and could have convinced people to at least give it a try, but he never did. And for a guy who is supposed to be the wrestling journalist, there is no excuse to not cover promotions as big as EVOLVE and CHIKARA were at that point.
ROH had word of mouth mostly, and it was mostly because TNA had a lot of their guys, and WWE started picking up guys like Punk. I don't think CZW has ever been popular at all, aside from people hearing that someone died or almost died.

Dave raving about PWG helped, as did Sofia Vergara and Ronda Rousey going to the show, but Dave wasn't there from the beginning, you and I have followed PWG longer than Dave has; Dave wasn't working for Super Dragon to talk nice about the show or anything, being there is really awesome. PWG just happens to be the promotion that he goes with his friends, and you and i can agree that PWG had some awesome years. If Dave lived in Chicago, maybe he go watch EVOLVE or AAW, or maybe he'd go watch DEFY if he lived near Seattle, but he goes to PWG cuz it's what's close and his friends go to.
The same argument you say about EVOLVE, I can say it for 10 other more relevant promotions around the world, so why EVOLVE, if they weren't even making noise? It's not like PWG was running weekly shows either, it's a big piece every other month, it doesn't really take time away from other promotions.

Big Red Machine wrote:
Jun 16th, '20, 15:48
Do we know that the Network promise was ever actually made, or was that just internet speculation. It's not just EVOLVE with that one, either. We've been hearing rumors for YEARS about PROGRESS, ICW, and EVOLVE (and, to a lesser extent, OTT and wXw) and aside from the one EVOLVE show last summer, it has never happened.

We don't even know that they promised to help EVOLVE grow. Why would they want EVOLVE to grow that much if they're taking NXT on tour, and when EVOLVE runs a lot of shows in Florida, which would make them competition with the NXT B loop? A much more likely scenario to me is that they promised to help EVOLVE merely stay alive, like with ECW, and Gabe has now come to the point where he's making the same decision that Heyman did in 2001 and Cornette did in 1995 where it's just not worth the effort and stress to continue.
I do feel confident to say that the plan was there at one point, I used to get a ton of surveys about it when I was still subbed to their survey list, and you're right, ICW and PROGRESS got that offer too, and neither are doing particularly good either.
Why would Gabe join WWE if he wasn't thinking that the future looks like growth? WWE had to paint a good enough picture to Gabe to argue signing up with them. They were not going to allow EVOLVE to be bigger than NXT of course, but surely the plan was to help EVOLVE grow over ROH and PWG.
Even if 'staying alive' was the promise, they still failed EVOLVE if they indeed never come back from the hiatus.
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