A Good Write-Up from Wade Keller on Raw Underground

Tell it to the world!!
Post Reply
User avatar
Big Red Machine
Posts: 27378
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 15:12

A Good Write-Up from Wade Keller on Raw Underground

Post by Big Red Machine » Aug 5th, '20, 08:54

KELLER’S TAKE: Raw Underground and why it might be hasty to hate it quite yet



By Wade Keller, editor

August 4, 2020
https://www.pwtorch.com/site/2017/10/24 ... ing-flaws/
Shane McMahon returned to WWE Raw last night at the helm of a backroom fight club at the Performance Center dubbed “Raw Underground.” As soon as you saw it, you likely had a visceral reaction. That instant reaction could have been: “This looks cool and different. I’m eager to see where it leads.” Or, understandably, you might have reacted closer to this: “Oh no, WWE’s going to do another Brawl for All where people get hurt or look fake trying to look real.”

My reaction last night was being intrigued, with a healthy dose of concern.

Wade Keller, editorI worry that this is a Shane McMahon concept that hasn’t been fully thought through or planned out, but was impulsively agreed to with a fast turnaround over Vince McMahon’s concern about Raw’s ratings.

If there is a purpose to this that plays itself out and creates a new star or, at least, breaks up the sterile monotony of the three hour Raw, I might be won over.

My general instinct over the years has been that pro wrestling works best when the people running it creatively love pro wrestling in its most organic form and understand how to turn that into money-drawing entertainment fans will watch and spend money on.

To me, there’s little need to stray very far or very often from a one-on-one match with high stakes between two dynamic and entertaining personalities whom viewers ideally have a vested emotional interest in seeing either win or lose. There are so many varied ways to tell that story, I don’t tend to applaud sharp diversions from that.

A match between “Crusher” Jerry Blackwell and “Mad Dog” Vachon in a Death Match was entirely different from Verne Gagne vs. Nick Bockwinkel for the AWA World Hvt. Title as was Greg Gagne vs. Bobby “The Brain” Heenan in a Loser Wears a Weasel Suit match. Those were three matches that hooked me as a kid watching the AWA to become a lifelong fan.

I also love tag team wrestling. The British Bulldogs vs. The Dream Team (Greg Valentine & Brutus Beefcake) or The Hart Foundation (Bret Hart & Jim Neidhart) in the WWF in the mid-1980s opened my eyes to next level athleticism in matches with international influences. The Rock & Roll Express vs. The Midnight Express showed me the art of selling, comebacks, and creative double-team moves. and The Road Warriors vs. The Freebirds or The Koloffs showed off the potential of larger-than-life personalities mixing it up on the mic and in the ring with street smart talk and wit before the match leading to thunderous power moves and devastating finishes.

When the wrestlers have distinct, compelling personalities, and when you have a vested reason to root for one over another in a match inside the ring, and the stakes are high because the wrestling promotion has protected the integrity of the structure of the matches, a reasonable enforcement of the rules (and consequences for getting caught straying too far), and built up a roster of wrestlers who all covet championships and crave the thrill of victory over a rival, you just don’t need anything else.

So that is to say, I look at anything that goes beyond one-on-one or two-on-two matches with a skeptical eye. I first evaluate whether anything in addition to that – a structure like a cage, additional wrestlers, extra stipulations, use of weapons – is a crutch for just not having done the fundamentals well. If you don’t let wrestlers establish compelling personalities distinct from one another and if you don’t protect the value of titles and the emotional gratification that wrestlers gain from wins, then gimmicks and concepts and structures are often thrown out there to make up the difference.

That’s not to say I don’t love and see the value in a cage match to settle a score, or a six-man tag match when the wrestling factions line-up and call for it, but those situations should be done because it adds value to a strong foundation created by doing the basics well in the lead-up, not a substitute for it or a disdain for the art of pro wrestling in its more pure form.

Is Raw Underground a desperation move at a time of record-low viewership or an idea whose time has come that can grow an audience and create new stars regardless of whether ratings are high or low to begin with?

In times like these, I understand Vince McMahon looking around for unconventional answers. If they had arenas full of fans, it’d be a significant drawback for ticket paying customers to watch several fight segments that are filmed backstage. Without fans in arenas, the advantage of focusing the cameras at a match inside a ring in the middle of the arena is greatly diminished. It’s liberating in a way to have the crowds taken away, and we’ve seen creative ideas with Cinematic Wrestling month after month since the pandemic shut down live attendance. By no means is fan-free wrestling preferred, but it need not be crippling either. Pro wrestling has great latitude to reinvent how its presented, or at least stray from the usual boundaries, in times like these.

I’m willing to give Raw Underground some time because these aren’t normal times. It’s difficult to build new stars when crowds aren’t popping for their spots. When Darby Allin is leaping off of an entrance tunnel and announcers and a few dozen wrestlers have to create the excitement that a crowd of 10,000 normally would, there is less to lose and thus a greater incentive to shake up the setting and presentation.

There will be some bad ideas executed poorly, some average ideas executed masterfully, and some great ideas executed to near perfection, but even those won’t be for everyone. Personal taste is one criteria for evaluating concepts like Raw Underground. For me, whether I am intrigued and entertained counts for something. But what matters most is whether this concept is planned out and executed well with a specific goal in mind beyond the novelty and shock value of doing something that’s never been done before.

If Raw Underground leads to a compelling Cinematic Match on PPV that makes the event better and gives a couple of wrestlers a memorable stand-out moment in 2020, it might be worth it, even if you think personally some aspects of the concept and execution are cheesy. If Raw Underground helps establish a new wrestler or elevates a fledgling wrestler to new heights, and that translates to traditional wrestling matches for him later, Raw Underground will serve a purpose, even if the execution and presentation creates some eye-rolls along the way.

I’m willing to see this through. I’m not naive to WWE’s history of presenting hot-shot ideas without a plan. It’s not fair to assume already this is nothing more than one of those and judge it harshly after one night. I’m prepared to do that a few weeks or months from now, but until then – because of the circumstances we’re in – I’m willing to not exactly embrace this, but keep an open mind as we see the next chapter or two play out.

P.S. – I’m most intrigued with Dominic Dijakovic becoming the wrestler they try to elevate into a big star from this concept. I think it’s a pathway where he could shine as the bruising badass tough guy who emerges from this underground fight club whose charisma and ring style would translate effectively from there to traditional WWE in-ring wrestling matches.
Hold #712: ARM BAR!

Upcoming Reviews:
FIP in 2005
ROH Validation
PWG All-Star Weekend V: Night 2
DGUSA Open the Ultimate Gate 2013
ROH/CMLL Global Wars Espectacular: Day 3

User avatar
NWK2000
Posts: 1490
Joined: Feb 26th, '14, 00:52

Re: A Good Write-Up from Wade Keller on Raw Underground

Post by NWK2000 » Aug 5th, '20, 14:37

Raw Underground is almost comparable to WWEECW. You have a concept that you know is unique, but it isn't exactly how the hardcore audience anticipates it. On top of that, you only have so many minutes to push an entirely new concept and new stars, while also providing the content that a relatively casual, vanilla audience has tuned in to see. On top of that, you have a television network breathing down you neck, demanding immediate results (At least USA doesn't have gimmicky programming perimeters, so we won't be seeing a shilling the level of ECW's Zombie)

All the negatives said, there'll be at least one diamond in this rough, multiple if we're lucky. Every wrestling program, no matter how bad, has something intriguing about it. WCW 2000 had Scott Steiner. WWEECW had CM Punk, and a ton of others. I don't agree with Wade on...well...most things, but this sensible approach from a journalist is a breath of fresh air.
NWK Reviews is closed for business for now.

User avatar
cero2k
Site Admin
Posts: 20950
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 11:32

Re: A Good Write-Up from Wade Keller on Raw Underground

Post by cero2k » Aug 5th, '20, 15:44

He is describing literally every good and bad decision ever made in wrestling, yeah, every idea, good or bad on paper, could have a positive surprise miracle come out of it. Maybe Inokism could had produced a super-mega-superstar, but it didn't. The Final DELETION could had been Impact's burial, but it became their saving grace for a while. All Wade is doing is telling us to give it time, because maaaaayyyyybe it could work somehow, well yeah, no shit, but he doesn't mention all the other issues around it that other analysts are pointing out as to why this direction is doomed. Wade has always been a bit of a WWE-chill.

He's also saying like, hey maybe it gets someone over, or a stand-out moment in 2020, ignoring the point of why this thing exists to begin with. A "stand-out moment 2020" is not gonna save them from their rapid descend in the ratings nor their negotiations for future contracts.
Image

User avatar
Big Red Machine
Posts: 27378
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 15:12

Re: A Good Write-Up from Wade Keller on Raw Underground

Post by Big Red Machine » Aug 5th, '20, 16:39

cero2k wrote: Aug 5th, '20, 15:44 He is describing literally every good and bad decision ever made in wrestling, yeah, every idea, good or bad on paper, could have a positive surprise miracle come out of it. Maybe Inokism could had produced a super-mega-superstar, but it didn't. The Final DELETION could had been Impact's burial, but it became their saving grace for a while. All Wade is doing is telling us to give it time, because maaaaayyyyybe it could work somehow, well yeah, no shit, but he doesn't mention all the other issues around it that other analysts are pointing out as to why this direction is doomed. Wade has always been a bit of a WWE-chill.

He's also saying like, hey maybe it gets someone over, or a stand-out moment in 2020, ignoring the point of why this thing exists to begin with. A "stand-out moment 2020" is not gonna save them from their rapid descend in the ratings nor their negotiations for future contracts.
You're missing the point. Obviously every idea can wind up being good, even if it looks bad at first. What Wade is talking about is the reaction. Most of the things you listed didn't provoke the immediate visceral reaction from people. People DID give Inokiism a chance. With this, people seem to have immediately thrown their hands up in the same. It's similar to a lot of the TNA stuff in 2010-2015, except that instead of the same mistakes over and over again, this is a new thing. And he's acknowledging that the reason some people have had that reaction instead of the "wait and see" they had with Inokiism or with the Final Deletion is WWE's own fault. He's just saying that he thinks that in this particular situation, there could actually be something that comes from this and is actually effective in a way that the other things WWE does aren't.

He doesn't mention those other issues in particular, but he does call them out ("even if the execution and presentation creates some eye-rolls along the way"). If you want more detail on what he didn't like, listen to the two or three podcasts he has done since Raw where he has discussed this.


Also the Finial Deletion wouldn't have been the burial of TNA. It would have been just one more in a long line of mistakes. And so too will this be for WWE if it fails.



And I don't think Wade has a pro-WWE bent. I think he just likes things a little more than many. He was also praising the MJF promo from this past week while Todd Martin shat all over it.
Hold #712: ARM BAR!

Upcoming Reviews:
FIP in 2005
ROH Validation
PWG All-Star Weekend V: Night 2
DGUSA Open the Ultimate Gate 2013
ROH/CMLL Global Wars Espectacular: Day 3

User avatar
cero2k
Site Admin
Posts: 20950
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 11:32

Re: A Good Write-Up from Wade Keller on Raw Underground

Post by cero2k » Aug 6th, '20, 10:35

Big Red Machine wrote: Aug 5th, '20, 16:39 You're missing the point. Obviously every idea can wind up being good, even if it looks bad at first. What Wade is talking about is the reaction. Most of the things you listed didn't provoke the immediate visceral reaction from people. People DID give Inokiism a chance. With this, people seem to have immediately thrown their hands up in the same. It's similar to a lot of the TNA stuff in 2010-2015, except that instead of the same mistakes over and over again, this is a new thing. And he's acknowledging that the reason some people have had that reaction instead of the "wait and see" they had with Inokiism or with the Final Deletion is WWE's own fault. He's just saying that he thinks that in this particular situation, there could actually be something that comes from this and is actually effective in a way that the other things WWE does aren't.

He doesn't mention those other issues in particular, but he does call them out ("even if the execution and presentation creates some eye-rolls along the way"). If you want more detail on what he didn't like, listen to the two or three podcasts he has done since Raw where he has discussed this.

Also the Finial Deletion wouldn't have been the burial of TNA. It would have been just one more in a long line of mistakes. And so too will this be for WWE if it fails.

And I don't think Wade has a pro-WWE bent. I think he just likes things a little more than many. He was also praising the MJF promo from this past week while Todd Martin shat all over it.
I heard the post-show podcast and that's where I got the impression that he was being a wwe apologist grasping at straws, because this is really not easy to defend. He doesn't need to have a strong bias to not be chill about WWE, Dave is the same, always excusing WWE's booking.

The reaction it's because it's a bad idea, surrounded by bad ideas, introduced in a bad way, leading months if not years of bad ideas. People gave Inokism a chance because Inoki wasn't leading with 10 years of bad booking when he introduced it. But even seeing RAW Underground in a void, it's a bad idea, it's a fake shoot promotion inside a promotion, using the talent from such promotion, showing that for some reason, they either fight the same with different results, or apparently are holding out on WWE. It's not even in a different secret location like fight club. There's no reason to give WWE the benefit of the doubt because maaaayyybeeeeee this is the one that works
Image

User avatar
Thelone
Posts: 430
Joined: Jul 9th, '19, 16:22

Re: A Good Write-Up from Wade Keller on Raw Underground

Post by Thelone » Aug 6th, '20, 11:28

So Vince finally saw Fight Club, huh?

Anyway, it's basically just another cinematic thing with an expiration date. Like, what happens when you can finally have crowds back? Does this become another Network-only show and RAW goes back to being the usual three-hour slog, or do they make RAW shorter and tape whatever else during the third hour (205 or Main Event) while Underground airs on TV? Of course, both those options imply that this is actually a success and not awful or the same old shit.

User avatar
Big Red Machine
Posts: 27378
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 15:12

Re: A Good Write-Up from Wade Keller on Raw Underground

Post by Big Red Machine » Aug 6th, '20, 19:35

cero2k wrote: Aug 6th, '20, 10:35 The reaction it's because it's a bad idea, surrounded by bad ideas, introduced in a bad way, leading months if not years of bad ideas. People gave Inokism a chance because Inoki wasn't leading with 10 years of bad booking when he introduced it. But even seeing RAW Underground in a void, it's a bad idea, it's a fake shoot promotion inside a promotion, using the talent from such promotion, showing that for some reason, they either fight the same with different results, or apparently are holding out on WWE. It's not even in a different secret location like fight club.
The kayfabe issues you raise are solved by the fact that it's Shane doing it. It's an official WWE thing. No one ever said that it wasn't, ans it has it's own logo that uses the official Raw logo, and it got hyped up and promoted on the show by the announcers. There is no reason to think that Shane can't just book wrestlers to have matches here, especially if they're being broadcast on TV (but even if they're not, dark matches and house shows happen all the time). For all intents and purposes, this is just a WWE-sanctioned match with different rules than the standard, just like any other gimmick match.
It is for that reason that the "fake shoot" thing doesn't come into play (at least not yet), IMO. It's not like they've been framing it as "real" or "legit" or whatever. That's obviously the vibe they're going for, but this is not Vince Russo telling us that Tank Abbot will take Goldberg out because Tank is a real fighter. Nothing being said or done in this segment in any way impugned the kayfabe reality of any other part of the show.


That being said, as I'm sure you can guess, I think that this should have been explained. Everything from the rules to how Shane got power back to whether or not this is part of WWE. These are not things that people should have questions about if the story is being told competently. But I am someone who calls for explanations everywhere. If you are going to excuse things like this in AEW and New Japan, you shouldn't complain about them in WWE
(I know my above explanation might be seen as hypocritical, given my reaction to defenses of NJPW angles that rely on head-canon, but I think the difference here is that the things I am saying are all previously-established facts in the world of WWE. They're not head-canon because I'm not making anything up or relying on completely unfounded inferences about someone's emotions that go against normal human behavior. I'm merely applying the previously-established rules of the world of WWE to see if this situation fits within them, and it does.)

I am willing to give them one more week to explain these things because even in kayfabe, the idea of creating a buzz exists. The fact that WWE is now taping back to back gives me a little bit more optimism than I otherwise would have, because when you tape back to back, you can't change things from week to week, and things often make more sense. Of course, that requires competent continuity-checking, and that's not something WWE cares about, but I am least a little bit more optimistic that we'll get some sort of explanation than I would be otherwise (and if that explanation is dumb, I will rip it apart the way I would with anything else).

cero2k wrote: Aug 6th, '20, 10:35 There's no reason to give WWE the benefit of the doubt because maaaayyybeeeeee this is the one that works
Correct. But what Wade is offering is a decent analysis of why this could work. He's not saying to give WWE the benefit of the doubt; he's saying "just because WWE has repeatedly proven themselves unworthy of the benefit of the doubt doesn't mean that you should immediately dismiss this, either.
His point about this being a thing that you couldn't do in front of an audience is also important. He's pointing out that if you're someone who is okay with cinematic things, this is essentially one of them.
Hold #712: ARM BAR!

Upcoming Reviews:
FIP in 2005
ROH Validation
PWG All-Star Weekend V: Night 2
DGUSA Open the Ultimate Gate 2013
ROH/CMLL Global Wars Espectacular: Day 3

User avatar
Big Red Machine
Posts: 27378
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 15:12

Re: A Good Write-Up from Wade Keller on Raw Underground

Post by Big Red Machine » Aug 6th, '20, 19:37

Thelone wrote: Aug 6th, '20, 11:28

Anyway, it's basically just another cinematic thing with an expiration date. Like, what happens when you can finally have crowds back? Does this become another Network-only show
That's actually a pretty interesting idea.
Hold #712: ARM BAR!

Upcoming Reviews:
FIP in 2005
ROH Validation
PWG All-Star Weekend V: Night 2
DGUSA Open the Ultimate Gate 2013
ROH/CMLL Global Wars Espectacular: Day 3

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 26 guests