The Funny Wrestling Topic

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cero2k
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Re: The Funny Wrestling Topic

Post by cero2k » May 11th, '21, 19:57

Big Red Machine wrote: May 11th, '21, 15:12

What I'm saying is that in WWE's minds, they're not the same because the production values are better and they think the cinematic nature of things makes it different. When Houdini would saw a woman in half, he and his wife were on the stage and the audience was in the seats. When Fraz Harrari does it, he's got cameras right there for the TV special and he's inciting people up onto the stage to take a close look and hold the assistant's foot the whole time to make sure it's not animatronic. It's not about the magic, but rather how it is done. WWE thinks that the Fiend and Alexa have a wow-factor that the Warrior/Shango stuff didn't.
Yeah yeah, i totally agree with this. What i'm pointing out is that for anyone outside that bubble that hasn't drank the flavor-aid, we all see the hypocrisy and idiocy of their statement. They believe their statement in every way possible, but to anyone with a working brain, we see the issues with the statement.
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Re: The Funny Wrestling Topic

Post by Big Red Machine » May 11th, '21, 22:37

cero2k wrote: May 11th, '21, 19:57
Big Red Machine wrote: May 11th, '21, 15:12

What I'm saying is that in WWE's minds, they're not the same because the production values are better and they think the cinematic nature of things makes it different. When Houdini would saw a woman in half, he and his wife were on the stage and the audience was in the seats. When Fraz Harrari does it, he's got cameras right there for the TV special and he's inciting people up onto the stage to take a close look and hold the assistant's foot the whole time to make sure it's not animatronic. It's not about the magic, but rather how it is done. WWE thinks that the Fiend and Alexa have a wow-factor that the Warrior/Shango stuff didn't.
Yeah yeah, i totally agree with this. What i'm pointing out is that for anyone outside that bubble that hasn't drank the flavor-aid, we all see the hypocrisy and idiocy of their statement. They believe their statement in every way possible, but to anyone with a working brain, we see the issues with the statement.
I don't think that their statement is hypocritical, though. Is it wrong? Yes. Kind of stupid? Yes. Totally unnecessary? Absolutely. But I don't think it's hypocritical because they're not doing anything that they're criticizing AEW for.
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Re: The Funny Wrestling Topic

Post by cero2k » May 12th, '21, 09:32

Big Red Machine wrote: May 11th, '21, 22:37
I don't think that their statement is hypocritical, though. Is it wrong? Yes. Kind of stupid? Yes. Totally unnecessary? Absolutely. But I don't think it's hypocritical because they're not doing anything that they're criticizing AEW for.
It's still gonna fall under 'what we are doing are movies', but whether their comment was about the actual blood, or the production value of the finish, we don't need to look further than Rollins 'literally' poking Rey rey's eye out, or burning Fiend to a crisp. Both things are way more gory and lamer.
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Re: The Funny Wrestling Topic

Post by Big Red Machine » May 12th, '21, 10:09

cero2k wrote: May 12th, '21, 09:32
Big Red Machine wrote: May 11th, '21, 22:37
I don't think that their statement is hypocritical, though. Is it wrong? Yes. Kind of stupid? Yes. Totally unnecessary? Absolutely. But I don't think it's hypocritical because they're not doing anything that they're criticizing AEW for.
It's still gonna fall under 'what we are doing are movies', but whether their comment was about the actual blood, or the production value of the finish, we don't need to look further than Rollins 'literally' poking Rey rey's eye out, or burning Fiend to a crisp. Both things are way more gory and lamer.
I can agree about Rey and Rollins, but I think the actual production of the Fiend thing was handled relatively well (and not gorily) for what it was. It was a dumb idea, but they didn't make it look silly. It's also possible that their mindset is not blood but rather blading (which fits into some of their previous insanity, like "blading is bad, so we'll have Brock bust Randy open hard-way with a f*cking elbow to the head!") in which case the Rey/Rollins thing wouldn't actually apply because what their saying is that use of special effects is the future.


Wade Keller made a good point that with AEW, the issue of the execution wasn't so much the effect itself as it was the horrible choice of camera shot to use. If they don't give us a close-up of Jericho, the effect is not exposed at all.
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Re: The Funny Wrestling Topic

Post by cero2k » May 12th, '21, 11:47

Big Red Machine wrote: May 12th, '21, 10:09
Wade Keller made a good point that with AEW, the issue of the execution wasn't so much the effect itself as it was the horrible choice of camera shot to use. If they don't give us a close-up of Jericho, the effect is not exposed at all.
I really wasn't bothered by that, may be the only one out there, I saw it and was like it's padded, obviously, why wouldn't it be.
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Re: The Funny Wrestling Topic

Post by Thelone » May 12th, '21, 14:59

cero2k wrote: May 12th, '21, 11:47I really wasn't bothered by that, may be the only one out there, I saw it and was like it's padded, obviously, why wouldn't it be.
Of course it's padded, maybe just don't zoom and stay on it for a while to expose the trick in full view. To be fair, it wasn't the only production fail (coupled with Jericho not even trying at this point) during this match, like the camera staying way too long on Jericho picking up the blade in his wristband (and his complete lack of subtlety), squeezing MJF's thigh so he starts his comeback during the Liontamer in full view of the hard camera HE WAS JUST STARING AT, and talking to referees during his beauty sle... after his big death fall.

It was the same thing with the explosion : no one was expecting a nuclear bomb to go off and kill people, but a bunch of loud firecrackers and the old "big guys do a superplex and the ring crumbles" trick (and smoke afterwards) would have been a billion times more effective than shitty sparklers and still perfectly safe for the wrestlers.

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Re: The Funny Wrestling Topic

Post by Big Red Machine » May 12th, '21, 18:33

Thelone wrote: May 12th, '21, 14:59
cero2k wrote: May 12th, '21, 11:47I really wasn't bothered by that, may be the only one out there, I saw it and was like it's padded, obviously, why wouldn't it be.
Of course it's padded, maybe just don't zoom and stay on it for a while to expose the trick in full view.
This. The wrestlers aren't really getting dropped on their heads when they take DDTs and Piledrivers, either, but that doesn't mean you should use camera angles that this fact more obvious. You don't do think that rub in to the audience that what they're watching isn't real.
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Re: The Funny Wrestling Topic

Post by NWK2000 » May 13th, '21, 03:24

cero2k wrote: May 12th, '21, 11:47
Big Red Machine wrote: May 12th, '21, 10:09
Wade Keller made a good point that with AEW, the issue of the execution wasn't so much the effect itself as it was the horrible choice of camera shot to use. If they don't give us a close-up of Jericho, the effect is not exposed at all.
I really wasn't bothered by that, may be the only one out there, I saw it and was like it's padded, obviously, why wouldn't it be.
I look at wrestling shows the way you're supposed to watch those themed stunt shows at the theme park. Like they might have some transparently janky shit, but you can still appreciate the idea they're trying to get across.
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Re: The Funny Wrestling Topic

Post by cero2k » May 13th, '21, 13:04

Thelone wrote: May 12th, '21, 14:59
cero2k wrote: May 12th, '21, 11:47I really wasn't bothered by that, may be the only one out there, I saw it and was like it's padded, obviously, why wouldn't it be.
Of course it's padded, maybe just don't zoom and stay on it for a while to expose the trick in full view. To be fair, it wasn't the only production fail (coupled with Jericho not even trying at this point) during this match, like the camera staying way too long on Jericho picking up the blade in his wristband (and his complete lack of subtlety), squeezing MJF's thigh so he starts his comeback during the Liontamer in full view of the hard camera HE WAS JUST STARING AT, and talking to referees during his beauty sle... after his big death fall.

It was the same thing with the explosion : no one was expecting a nuclear bomb to go off and kill people, but a bunch of loud firecrackers and the old "big guys do a superplex and the ring crumbles" trick (and smoke afterwards) would have been a billion times more effective than shitty sparklers and still perfectly safe for the wrestlers.
I'm just not bothered by any of that. the explosion was a dud and shit happens, and yeah, they could improve their camera work, I think every promotion should, for storytelling reasons, but none of that detracts from the match for me, just like empty arena haven't either, it's still the same story being told
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Re: The Funny Wrestling Topic

Post by Big Red Machine » May 13th, '21, 14:31

cero2k wrote: May 13th, '21, 13:04
Thelone wrote: May 12th, '21, 14:59
cero2k wrote: May 12th, '21, 11:47I really wasn't bothered by that, may be the only one out there, I saw it and was like it's padded, obviously, why wouldn't it be.
Of course it's padded, maybe just don't zoom and stay on it for a while to expose the trick in full view. To be fair, it wasn't the only production fail (coupled with Jericho not even trying at this point) during this match, like the camera staying way too long on Jericho picking up the blade in his wristband (and his complete lack of subtlety), squeezing MJF's thigh so he starts his comeback during the Liontamer in full view of the hard camera HE WAS JUST STARING AT, and talking to referees during his beauty sle... after his big death fall.

It was the same thing with the explosion : no one was expecting a nuclear bomb to go off and kill people, but a bunch of loud firecrackers and the old "big guys do a superplex and the ring crumbles" trick (and smoke afterwards) would have been a billion times more effective than shitty sparklers and still perfectly safe for the wrestlers.
I'm just not bothered by any of that. the explosion was a dud and shit happens, and yeah, they could improve their camera work, I think every promotion should, for storytelling reasons, but none of that detracts from the match for me, just like empty arena haven't either, it's still the same story being told
I don't think it's fair to hold the padding against the match because it didn't happen during the match, but I certainly think it's fair to hold a poor production decision against the angle.
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Re: The Funny Wrestling Topic

Post by cero2k » May 13th, '21, 20:27

Big Red Machine wrote: May 13th, '21, 14:31 I don't think it's fair to hold the padding against the match because it didn't happen during the match, but I certainly think it's fair to hold a poor production decision against the angle.
If the bad production alters the result of the angle, yeah, especially if the promotion fails to follow up and deal with the fuck up; however, with Jericho, we saw him fall, that's the spot, we were just able to see some padding, but the story of the angle wasn't changed at all. The important thing here is not whether he fell on concrete or pillows, but that he was tossed. I think it just comes down to how much fans need for the fantasy to be upheld, don't remind them that wrestling, is indeed, still fake.
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Re: The Funny Wrestling Topic

Post by Big Red Machine » May 13th, '21, 21:20

cero2k wrote: May 13th, '21, 20:27
Big Red Machine wrote: May 13th, '21, 14:31 I don't think it's fair to hold the padding against the match because it didn't happen during the match, but I certainly think it's fair to hold a poor production decision against the angle.
If the bad production alters the result of the angle, yeah, especially if the promotion fails to follow up and deal with the fuck up; however, with Jericho, we saw him fall, that's the spot, we were just able to see some padding, but the story of the angle wasn't changed at all. The important thing here is not whether he fell on concrete or pillows, but that he was tossed. I think it just comes down to how much fans need for the fantasy to be upheld, don't remind them that wrestling, is indeed, still fake.
I totally disagree. If you throw someone onto concrete, it's a lot more heinous and I'm going to be a lot more concerned for their health than if you throw them onto pillows. If you go to a Superman movie and you can see the wires, the movie is going to be less impressive because it's immersion-breaking. The fact that there are cushions under the spot where Jericho fell through and the stage in the spot he got thrown through looks cardboard painted to look like metal does remind us that wrestling is, indeed, fake.
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Re: The Funny Wrestling Topic

Post by cero2k » May 14th, '21, 10:27

Big Red Machine wrote: May 13th, '21, 21:20
I totally disagree. If you throw someone onto concrete, it's a lot more heinous and I'm going to be a lot more concerned for their health than if you throw them onto pillows. If you go to a Superman movie and you can see the wires, the movie is going to be less impressive because it's immersion-breaking. The fact that there are cushions under the spot where Jericho fell through and the stage in the spot he got thrown through looks cardboard painted to look like metal does remind us that wrestling is, indeed, fake.
I never watch thinking that this is real, it's a fake sport and they're telling stories. There's a reason I don't like Deathmatches, unnecessary realness. Falling to 'real' looking surfaces doesn't make it better to me, the fall looked perfectly ok. Of course there's room for improvement, but the fact that people are making such a big fuzz about it just comes off as nitpicking a pretty good match
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Re: The Funny Wrestling Topic

Post by Big Red Machine » May 14th, '21, 12:46

cero2k wrote: May 14th, '21, 10:27
Big Red Machine wrote: May 13th, '21, 21:20
I totally disagree. If you throw someone onto concrete, it's a lot more heinous and I'm going to be a lot more concerned for their health than if you throw them onto pillows. If you go to a Superman movie and you can see the wires, the movie is going to be less impressive because it's immersion-breaking. The fact that there are cushions under the spot where Jericho fell through and the stage in the spot he got thrown through looks cardboard painted to look like metal does remind us that wrestling is, indeed, fake.
I never watch thinking that this is real, it's a fake sport and they're telling stories. There's a reason I don't like Deathmatches, unnecessary realness. Falling to 'real' looking surfaces doesn't make it better to me, the fall looked perfectly ok. Of course there's room for improvement, but the fact that people are making such a big fuzz about it just comes off as nitpicking a pretty good match
It's not a nit-pick if it kills the illusion. I would be one thing if they sold it like he just hurt his shoulder, but in the moment, they they were selling it like he was dead when he clearly fell on padding and through a fake section of stage.

And it's not just the effect, but lack of common sense involved in not testing it first. How hard would it have been to toss a dummy off the cage and see how the shot looked? It's common sense, and AEW once again failed to exhibit it. Just like they didn't test their big bomb out before going live on PPV with it and relying on it for a big moment.
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Re: The Funny Wrestling Topic

Post by cero2k » May 15th, '21, 21:17

Big Red Machine wrote: May 14th, '21, 12:46
It's not a nit-pick if it kills the illusion. I would be one thing if they sold it like he just hurt his shoulder, but in the moment, they they were selling it like he was dead when he clearly fell on padding and through a fake section of stage.

And it's not just the effect, but lack of common sense involved in not testing it first. How hard would it have been to toss a dummy off the cage and see how the shot looked? It's common sense, and AEW once again failed to exhibit it. Just like they didn't test their big bomb out before going live on PPV with it and relying on it for a big moment.
Red, you can't test fireworks, just because one works doesn't mean the next is not going to be a dud, you can't just put all the powder back in a ball after it has burnt.

it's still a huge fall, after a bloody match, after being knocked out and busted open with a ring, a fall that legit injured him, it's still a credible sell from commentary. People critiquing this should try and fall from cages at least once to see how it feels.
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Re: The Funny Wrestling Topic

Post by Big Red Machine » May 15th, '21, 21:34

cero2k wrote: May 15th, '21, 21:17
Big Red Machine wrote: May 14th, '21, 12:46
It's not a nit-pick if it kills the illusion. I would be one thing if they sold it like he just hurt his shoulder, but in the moment, they they were selling it like he was dead when he clearly fell on padding and through a fake section of stage.

And it's not just the effect, but lack of common sense involved in not testing it first. How hard would it have been to toss a dummy off the cage and see how the shot looked? It's common sense, and AEW once again failed to exhibit it. Just like they didn't test their big bomb out before going live on PPV with it and relying on it for a big moment.
Red, you can't test fireworks, just because one works doesn't mean the next is not going to be a dud, you can't just put all the powder back in a ball after it has burnt.

it's still a huge fall, after a bloody match, after being knocked out and busted open with a ring, a fall that legit injured him, it's still a credible sell from commentary. People critiquing this should try and fall from cages at least once to see how it feels.
No one is suggesting he take the practice fall. You do it with a dummy. You're testing the camera to see if the shot you want exposes your safety precautions.
Sure, Jericho was legitimately injured, but at the time of the fall, it didn't look like he was, but people were selling it like he might be crippled. It killed the moment.
(And I'm not convinced that the current injury isn't a work, just based on how long it took for it to be reported)

And the issue with the bomb wasn't that it was a dud. It was that they didn't use anywhere near enough explosives to make it look remotely credible as a threat for the way they told Kingston to sell it.

And I totally would take a bump off of the cage, through the cardboard stage and onto padding. Maybe it does hurt more than it looked like, but if that's the case then it's not good pro wrestling. In wrestling you want something to not hurt much even though it looks like it hurts like hell.
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Re: The Funny Wrestling Topic

Post by Big Red Machine » May 23rd, '21, 15:18

I'm sure this has been posted before, but I can't not post it. I can't hear Kojima's name or the word lariat without thinking about this:

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Re: The Funny Wrestling Topic

Post by cero2k » May 31st, '21, 17:18

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Re: The Funny Wrestling Topic

Post by Big Red Machine » Jun 1st, '21, 01:11

cero2k wrote: May 31st, '21, 17:18
My first thought when I saw the graphic was the Bill Watts approach: those guys went to AEW because they're cowards and not tough enough to be around Randy Orton.
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Re: The Funny Wrestling Topic

Post by NWK2000 » Jun 2nd, '21, 12:56

Big Red Machine wrote: Jun 1st, '21, 01:11
cero2k wrote: May 31st, '21, 17:18
My first thought when I saw the graphic was the Bill Watts approach: those guys went to AEW because they're cowards and not tough enough to be around Randy Orton.
They did that to explain Crush's departure from the WWF in 1997 as well, said he got tombstoned by Kane and then quit as a result of not wanting to play rough anymore.
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