2021 Wrestling Observer Awards

Tell it to the world!!
User avatar
Big Red Machine
Posts: 27378
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 15:12

Re: 2021 Wrestling Observer Awards

Post by Big Red Machine » Feb 27th, '21, 22:30

cero2k wrote: Feb 27th, '21, 19:39
Big Red Machine wrote: Feb 27th, '21, 17:18
They generally haven't had that "one big f*ck-up," yes, but there have been more than enough little things to make me remove the benefit of the doubt where most people in AEW are concerned. They (and NXT) aren't in the WWE/WCW/TNA situation where they are pushing people away because they never really had those people in the first place. But there were a lot of people who sampled AEW in those first few months who clearly decided not to keep watching.
Yeah, but you are also, and I say this in praise, one of the biggest nitpickers I've ever met. The people they have 'lost' since they're debut are not necessarily people that left because of the show, a lot of them were never gonna stick with it to begin with, obviously most people tuned in, even the WWE cultists, in order to see what the whole thing was about. Then you have the pandemic that a lot of people have blamed for dropping off wrestling altogether. NXT has dropped about the same amount since debuting on USA and potentially more since they were on the network. AEW's booking isn't exactly driving people off.
AEW's big drop-off happened BEFORE the pandemic.
Am I a nit-picker? Yes. There is a reason that the person whose opinion on the wrestling business I respect most is Lance Storm.
But I think that when you build yourself up the way AEW did (with their records and "sports-like presentation" and all of those other things that Cody and especially Tony Khan told the media) and then repeatedly fail to deliver on that- even if some of those ways are small- you tell viewers that you're full of sh*t and your promises and hype are not to be trusted.
Hold #712: ARM BAR!

Upcoming Reviews:
FIP in 2005
ROH Validation
PWG All-Star Weekend V: Night 2
DGUSA Open the Ultimate Gate 2013
ROH/CMLL Global Wars Espectacular: Day 3

User avatar
XIV
Posts: 1802
Joined: Aug 19th, '13, 11:38

Re: 2021 Wrestling Observer Awards

Post by XIV » Feb 28th, '21, 02:28

Big Red Machine wrote: Feb 27th, '21, 17:14
XIV wrote: Feb 26th, '21, 14:53
Big Red Machine wrote: Feb 26th, '21, 14:37

I don't think that's a fair definition of charisma.
If you take base definition, “compelling attractiveness or charm that can inspire devotion in others” then yes. Maybe so.
Let me rephrase. It's a good definition of charisma, but if you're using ratings numbers to judge it, then it also doesn't apply to the likes of Finn Balor, Adam Cole, Moxley, etc.
I’m using the visual charisma, where someone says or does something that makes you feel something. The Rock, Stone Cold, Hogan, Flair, Steamboat, Midnight Express, HBK, Road Warriors, Piper, Dusty hell even step down, Road Dogg, Mark Henry, Bradshaw, Eddie Guerrero. They all had charisma in that they made you give them a reaction and you became emotionally invested in whatever they were going to do.

Whilst OC might get a reaction, I don’t feel there’s much of an emotional investment. This makes him comparable to a clown in a circus. He’ll get a pop for being a goof, but will you care when he’s gone? Do you want to see more clown? Unlikely.
Have A Nice Day!

User avatar
XIV
Posts: 1802
Joined: Aug 19th, '13, 11:38

Re: 2021 Wrestling Observer Awards

Post by XIV » Feb 28th, '21, 04:50

cero2k wrote: Feb 26th, '21, 16:57 There is no way I believe that you're into the whole Dave is in AEW's pocket conspiracy theory.
I'm not one of those who thinks he's on AEW payroll, I don't think that's the case at all but the "hard time" he gives AEW is very different to the "hard time" he's given WWE, WCW, ECW, NWA, Smokey Mountain, ROH & Impact etc over the year.
But I think the only people left who care about wrestling enough to subscribe to his newsletter are largely the same crowd that follows AEW. This is a case of the awards, mirroring those readers tastes.

Previously, it was other companies like NWA preferred over WWE and various companies have taken the spot. It's not the first time this has happened.

Really, Dave is a whore to whatever his fanbase is. So when I say, he's in the pocket, that's what I mean. He knows what his readership and following is and panders out to it.

I'm sorry, but how can you defend the overall choice of Tony Khan as best booker. This is bullshit. In terms of booking a show, it's a ridiculous award to give him, he runs a schizophrenic show. Whilst there aren't many "bookers" out there anymore, but his aptitude for actually booking a national TV product is just not there. He books like the mark he is. Every World Title match has a stipulation for no reason, he's thrown in bull-rope and falls count anywhere with no build up and no reasons behind it, he continues to book Luther, Serpentico and other really poor talent above guys who actually hold talent. Promoter of the year, yes, he's introduced a national company and got them profitable in their first full 12 months, got national TV and every PPV is profit. But the booking... just isn't there. It cannot be defended.
Have A Nice Day!

User avatar
Big Red Machine
Posts: 27378
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 15:12

Re: 2021 Wrestling Observer Awards

Post by Big Red Machine » Feb 28th, '21, 10:39

XIV wrote: Feb 28th, '21, 02:28
Big Red Machine wrote: Feb 27th, '21, 17:14
XIV wrote: Feb 26th, '21, 14:53

If you take base definition, “compelling attractiveness or charm that can inspire devotion in others” then yes. Maybe so.
Let me rephrase. It's a good definition of charisma, but if you're using ratings numbers to judge it, then it also doesn't apply to the likes of Finn Balor, Adam Cole, Moxley, etc.
I’m using the visual charisma, where someone says or does something that makes you feel something. The Rock, Stone Cold, Hogan, Flair, Steamboat, Midnight Express, HBK, Road Warriors, Piper, Dusty hell even step down, Road Dogg, Mark Henry, Bradshaw, Eddie Guerrero. They all had charisma in that they made you give them a reaction and you became emotionally invested in whatever they were going to do.

Whilst OC might get a reaction, I don’t feel there’s much of an emotional investment. This makes him comparable to a clown in a circus. He’ll get a pop for being a goof, but will you care when he’s gone? Do you want to see more clown? Unlikely.
Ah. I see where you're coming from now and agree.
Hold #712: ARM BAR!

Upcoming Reviews:
FIP in 2005
ROH Validation
PWG All-Star Weekend V: Night 2
DGUSA Open the Ultimate Gate 2013
ROH/CMLL Global Wars Espectacular: Day 3

User avatar
Big Red Machine
Posts: 27378
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 15:12

Re: 2021 Wrestling Observer Awards

Post by Big Red Machine » Feb 28th, '21, 11:17

XIV wrote: Feb 28th, '21, 04:50
cero2k wrote: Feb 26th, '21, 16:57 There is no way I believe that you're into the whole Dave is in AEW's pocket conspiracy theory.
I'm not one of those who thinks he's on AEW payroll, I don't think that's the case at all but the "hard time" he gives AEW is very different to the "hard time" he's given WWE, WCW, ECW, NWA, Smokey Mountain, ROH & Impact etc over the year.
But I think the only people left who care about wrestling enough to subscribe to his newsletter are largely the same crowd that follows AEW. This is a case of the awards, mirroring those readers tastes.

Previously, it was other companies like NWA preferred over WWE and various companies have taken the spot. It's not the first time this has happened.
Yeah. The NWA was the last major time this happened, but as I have pointed out over the years, Dave rates PWG (and New Japan and AEW, when he can go) LIVE. For everyone else, even if he is live, like he is for Mania. He has waited to rewatch it on TV/PPV/streaming/whatever before giving a rating.
XIV wrote: Feb 28th, '21, 04:50
Really, Dave is a whore to whatever his fanbase is. So when I say, he's in the pocket, that's what I mean. He knows what his readership and following is and panders out to it.
I didn't used to think this was true until the floodgates opened on the ***** matches after so many years of Angle, Benoit, HBK, Danielson, AJ, etc. not being able to crack ****3/4. Dave figured out that there were was money to be made in loosening his standards, both in terms of giving more *****s and especially in terms of giving out *****+.
I don't think he changes his tastes in terms of what makes him money, but I do think he will relax standards, and will focus more on certain things (for a guy who claims to love Lucha so much, his coverage of Lucha has been pretty sparse).
XIV wrote: Feb 28th, '21, 04:50 I'm sorry, but how can you defend the overall choice of Tony Khan as best booker. This is bullshit. In terms of booking a show, it's a ridiculous award to give him, he runs a schizophrenic show. Whilst there aren't many "bookers" out there anymore, but his aptitude for actually booking a national TV product is just not there. He books like the mark he is. Every World Title match has a stipulation for no reason, he's thrown in bull-rope and falls count anywhere with no build up and no reasons behind it, he continues to book Luther, Serpentico and other really poor talent above guys who actually hold talent. Promoter of the year, yes, he's introduced a national company and got them profitable in their first full 12 months, got national TV and every PPV is profit. But the booking... just isn't there. It cannot be defended.
This.
Hold #712: ARM BAR!

Upcoming Reviews:
FIP in 2005
ROH Validation
PWG All-Star Weekend V: Night 2
DGUSA Open the Ultimate Gate 2013
ROH/CMLL Global Wars Espectacular: Day 3

User avatar
XIV
Posts: 1802
Joined: Aug 19th, '13, 11:38

Re: 2021 Wrestling Observer Awards

Post by XIV » Feb 28th, '21, 13:12

Big Red Machine wrote: Feb 28th, '21, 11:17
XIV wrote: Feb 28th, '21, 04:50
cero2k wrote: Feb 26th, '21, 16:57 There is no way I believe that you're into the whole Dave is in AEW's pocket conspiracy theory.
I'm not one of those who thinks he's on AEW payroll, I don't think that's the case at all but the "hard time" he gives AEW is very different to the "hard time" he's given WWE, WCW, ECW, NWA, Smokey Mountain, ROH & Impact etc over the year.
But I think the only people left who care about wrestling enough to subscribe to his newsletter are largely the same crowd that follows AEW. This is a case of the awards, mirroring those readers tastes.

Previously, it was other companies like NWA preferred over WWE and various companies have taken the spot. It's not the first time this has happened.
Yeah. The NWA was the last major time this happened, but as I have pointed out over the years, Dave rates PWG (and New Japan and AEW, when he can go) LIVE. For everyone else, even if he is live, like he is for Mania. He has waited to rewatch it on TV/PPV/streaming/whatever before giving a rating.
XIV wrote: Feb 28th, '21, 04:50
Really, Dave is a whore to whatever his fanbase is. So when I say, he's in the pocket, that's what I mean. He knows what his readership and following is and panders out to it.
I didn't used to think this was true until the floodgates opened on the ***** matches after so many years of Angle, Benoit, HBK, Danielson, AJ, etc. not being able to crack ****3/4. Dave figured out that there were was money to be made in loosening his standards, both in terms of giving more *****s and especially in terms of giving out *****+.
I don't think he changes his tastes in terms of what makes him money, but I do think he will relax standards, and will focus more on certain things (for a guy who claims to love Lucha so much, his coverage of Lucha has been pretty sparse).
XIV wrote: Feb 28th, '21, 04:50 I'm sorry, but how can you defend the overall choice of Tony Khan as best booker. This is bullshit. In terms of booking a show, it's a ridiculous award to give him, he runs a schizophrenic show. Whilst there aren't many "bookers" out there anymore, but his aptitude for actually booking a national TV product is just not there. He books like the mark he is. Every World Title match has a stipulation for no reason, he's thrown in bull-rope and falls count anywhere with no build up and no reasons behind it, he continues to book Luther, Serpentico and other really poor talent above guys who actually hold talent. Promoter of the year, yes, he's introduced a national company and got them profitable in their first full 12 months, got national TV and every PPV is profit. But the booking... just isn't there. It cannot be defended.
This.
I absolutely get what you're saying about "loosening standards" and maybe you're right.
Have A Nice Day!

User avatar
cero2k
Site Admin
Posts: 20950
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 11:32

Re: 2021 Wrestling Observer Awards

Post by cero2k » Mar 2nd, '21, 09:52

Big Red Machine wrote: Feb 27th, '21, 22:30
AEW's big drop-off happened BEFORE the pandemic.
Am I a nit-picker? Yes. There is a reason that the person whose opinion on the wrestling business I respect most is Lance Storm.
But I think that when you build yourself up the way AEW did (with their records and "sports-like presentation" and all of those other things that Cody and especially Tony Khan told the media) and then repeatedly fail to deliver on that- even if some of those ways are small- you tell viewers that you're full of sh*t and your promises and hype are not to be trusted.
Yeah, the drop out of curiosity, the same drop out that literally all TV shows have. 4 months in to a completely new promotion. Where you honestly expecting that everyone that would watch on day 1 would just stay regardless? Of course not, and it doesn't have to be due to quality, a lot of people just can't watch it live. After those curious left, it's been steady (news aside), and have kept a strong demo, even beating RAW on many occasions.

I also don't know why people are so fixated with 'sports-like presentation' and records, for one, it's being taken sooooo literally, and two, things evolve and need to be adapted, I think people forget that none of these guys are experienced bookers OR promoters. "Promises and hype are not to be trusted", c'mon, you didn't start watching wrestling with AEW, there is not a single promotion in the world where you could and if there is, then they're stupid for not evolving as necessary. People who left because it wasn't 'sports-like presentation' where never going to follow it anyway.
Image

User avatar
cero2k
Site Admin
Posts: 20950
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 11:32

Re: 2021 Wrestling Observer Awards

Post by cero2k » Mar 2nd, '21, 10:22

XIV wrote: Feb 28th, '21, 04:50
cero2k wrote: Feb 26th, '21, 16:57 There is no way I believe that you're into the whole Dave is in AEW's pocket conspiracy theory.
I'm not one of those who thinks he's on AEW payroll, I don't think that's the case at all but the "hard time" he gives AEW is very different to the "hard time" he's given WWE, WCW, ECW, NWA, Smokey Mountain, ROH & Impact etc over the year.
But I think the only people left who care about wrestling enough to subscribe to his newsletter are largely the same crowd that follows AEW. This is a case of the awards, mirroring those readers tastes.

Previously, it was other companies like NWA preferred over WWE and various companies have taken the spot. It's not the first time this has happened.

Really, Dave is a whore to whatever his fanbase is. So when I say, he's in the pocket, that's what I mean. He knows what his readership and following is and panders out to it.

I'm sorry, but how can you defend the overall choice of Tony Khan as best booker. This is bullshit. In terms of booking a show, it's a ridiculous award to give him, he runs a schizophrenic show. Whilst there aren't many "bookers" out there anymore, but his aptitude for actually booking a national TV product is just not there. He books like the mark he is. Every World Title match has a stipulation for no reason, he's thrown in bull-rope and falls count anywhere with no build up and no reasons behind it, he continues to book Luther, Serpentico and other really poor talent above guys who actually hold talent. Promoter of the year, yes, he's introduced a national company and got them profitable in their first full 12 months, got national TV and every PPV is profit. But the booking... just isn't there. It cannot be defended.
Dave and Alvarez have always said that their content mirrors that what the fans ask about. I've always complained that their power could give promotions like Impact better credence with the fans, but since no one asks about them, they never talk about them. If they're AEW heavy right now, then it's not because Dave is pushing it, but because the fanbase IS talking about AEW, and watching AEW, and liking the product, and hence people are voting for it. I don't think it's the best promotion either, but when considering these are American based fans, I can totally see how AEW was the best promotion, for sure in the US, a MILES.

I'm sure Dave would love to just watch CMLL and Kento Miyahara every day, but he has to talk about The Miz because he has to talk about the biggest promotions in the world, not his preferences. I talk about my favorite promotions and I have never had a reply to my TJPW or Stardom reviews. Same with Red' EVOLVE stuff. It's not biases, it's supply and demand with Dave.

You're saying it like he's booking Serpentico in the main event. He has booked some great main event storylines with Jericho vs Mox, Page & Omega, Mox vs Kingston, the whole MJF vs Inner Circle. Is he perfect, no of course not, but he's doing better than many. If you ask me, Sanshiro Takagi would had won, but you'd be flipping your head because he books DDT. Who in your opinion was the booker of the year and I can pinpoint all the stuff that such person failed at too.
Image

User avatar
XIV
Posts: 1802
Joined: Aug 19th, '13, 11:38

Re: 2021 Wrestling Observer Awards

Post by XIV » Mar 2nd, '21, 12:02

cero2k wrote: Mar 2nd, '21, 10:22
XIV wrote: Feb 28th, '21, 04:50
cero2k wrote: Feb 26th, '21, 16:57 There is no way I believe that you're into the whole Dave is in AEW's pocket conspiracy theory.
I'm not one of those who thinks he's on AEW payroll, I don't think that's the case at all but the "hard time" he gives AEW is very different to the "hard time" he's given WWE, WCW, ECW, NWA, Smokey Mountain, ROH & Impact etc over the year.
But I think the only people left who care about wrestling enough to subscribe to his newsletter are largely the same crowd that follows AEW. This is a case of the awards, mirroring those readers tastes.

Previously, it was other companies like NWA preferred over WWE and various companies have taken the spot. It's not the first time this has happened.

Really, Dave is a whore to whatever his fanbase is. So when I say, he's in the pocket, that's what I mean. He knows what his readership and following is and panders out to it.

I'm sorry, but how can you defend the overall choice of Tony Khan as best booker. This is bullshit. In terms of booking a show, it's a ridiculous award to give him, he runs a schizophrenic show. Whilst there aren't many "bookers" out there anymore, but his aptitude for actually booking a national TV product is just not there. He books like the mark he is. Every World Title match has a stipulation for no reason, he's thrown in bull-rope and falls count anywhere with no build up and no reasons behind it, he continues to book Luther, Serpentico and other really poor talent above guys who actually hold talent. Promoter of the year, yes, he's introduced a national company and got them profitable in their first full 12 months, got national TV and every PPV is profit. But the booking... just isn't there. It cannot be defended.
Dave and Alvarez have always said that their content mirrors that what the fans ask about. I've always complained that their power could give promotions like Impact better credence with the fans, but since no one asks about them, they never talk about them. If they're AEW heavy right now, then it's not because Dave is pushing it, but because the fanbase IS talking about AEW, and watching AEW, and liking the product, and hence people are voting for it. I don't think it's the best promotion either, but when considering these are American based fans, I can totally see how AEW was the best promotion, for sure in the US, a MILES.

I'm sure Dave would love to just watch CMLL and Kento Miyahara every day, but he has to talk about The Miz because he has to talk about the biggest promotions in the world, not his preferences. I talk about my favorite promotions and I have never had a reply to my TJPW or Stardom reviews. Same with Red' EVOLVE stuff. It's not biases, it's supply and demand with Dave.

You're saying it like he's booking Serpentico in the main event. He has booked some great main event storylines with Jericho vs Mox, Page & Omega, Mox vs Kingston, the whole MJF vs Inner Circle. Is he perfect, no of course not, but he's doing better than many. If you ask me, Sanshiro Takagi would had won, but you'd be flipping your head because he books DDT. Who in your opinion was the booker of the year and I can pinpoint all the stuff that such person failed at too.
Booker of the year this year? Probably for me? Hunter Johnston / Delirious.

I don’t think ROH TV is the best most watchable show out there BUT, find me reasons why he’s not Booker of the year. Most stories have made sense, he hasn’t booked any murder mysteries, he hasn’t booked a guy fighting himself street fighter style and hasn’t booked every world title match as a gimmick match.

He booked a very competitive and competent Pure Title picture and generally the shows make a decent amount of sense as build from the start to the end in the way a good show should.

So that’s some of my reasoning, so please, counter this as to why Tony Khan is a better Booker. Also, you should leave Omega v Page booking out, seeing as that hasn’t actually really happened and they’ve dropped the ball on Page.
Have A Nice Day!

User avatar
Big Red Machine
Posts: 27378
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 15:12

Re: 2021 Wrestling Observer Awards

Post by Big Red Machine » Mar 2nd, '21, 20:39

XIV wrote: Mar 2nd, '21, 12:02
cero2k wrote: Mar 2nd, '21, 10:22
XIV wrote: Feb 28th, '21, 04:50

I'm not one of those who thinks he's on AEW payroll, I don't think that's the case at all but the "hard time" he gives AEW is very different to the "hard time" he's given WWE, WCW, ECW, NWA, Smokey Mountain, ROH & Impact etc over the year.
But I think the only people left who care about wrestling enough to subscribe to his newsletter are largely the same crowd that follows AEW. This is a case of the awards, mirroring those readers tastes.

Previously, it was other companies like NWA preferred over WWE and various companies have taken the spot. It's not the first time this has happened.

Really, Dave is a whore to whatever his fanbase is. So when I say, he's in the pocket, that's what I mean. He knows what his readership and following is and panders out to it.

I'm sorry, but how can you defend the overall choice of Tony Khan as best booker. This is bullshit. In terms of booking a show, it's a ridiculous award to give him, he runs a schizophrenic show. Whilst there aren't many "bookers" out there anymore, but his aptitude for actually booking a national TV product is just not there. He books like the mark he is. Every World Title match has a stipulation for no reason, he's thrown in bull-rope and falls count anywhere with no build up and no reasons behind it, he continues to book Luther, Serpentico and other really poor talent above guys who actually hold talent. Promoter of the year, yes, he's introduced a national company and got them profitable in their first full 12 months, got national TV and every PPV is profit. But the booking... just isn't there. It cannot be defended.
Dave and Alvarez have always said that their content mirrors that what the fans ask about. I've always complained that their power could give promotions like Impact better credence with the fans, but since no one asks about them, they never talk about them. If they're AEW heavy right now, then it's not because Dave is pushing it, but because the fanbase IS talking about AEW, and watching AEW, and liking the product, and hence people are voting for it. I don't think it's the best promotion either, but when considering these are American based fans, I can totally see how AEW was the best promotion, for sure in the US, a MILES.

I'm sure Dave would love to just watch CMLL and Kento Miyahara every day, but he has to talk about The Miz because he has to talk about the biggest promotions in the world, not his preferences. I talk about my favorite promotions and I have never had a reply to my TJPW or Stardom reviews. Same with Red' EVOLVE stuff. It's not biases, it's supply and demand with Dave.

You're saying it like he's booking Serpentico in the main event. He has booked some great main event storylines with Jericho vs Mox, Page & Omega, Mox vs Kingston, the whole MJF vs Inner Circle. Is he perfect, no of course not, but he's doing better than many. If you ask me, Sanshiro Takagi would had won, but you'd be flipping your head because he books DDT. Who in your opinion was the booker of the year and I can pinpoint all the stuff that such person failed at too.
Booker of the year this year? Probably for me? Hunter Johnston / Delirious.

I don’t think ROH TV is the best most watchable show out there BUT, find me reasons why he’s not Booker of the year. Most stories have made sense, he hasn’t booked any murder mysteries, he hasn’t booked a guy fighting himself street fighter style and hasn’t booked every world title match as a gimmick match.

He booked a very competitive and competent Pure Title picture and generally the shows make a decent amount of sense as build from the start to the end in the way a good show should.

So that’s some of my reasoning, so please, counter this as to why Tony Khan is a better Booker. Also, you should leave Omega v Page booking out, seeing as that hasn’t actually really happened and they’ve dropped the ball on Page.
For 2020, I think the sample size is too small, but I would generally agree with everything you said about ROH's booking... up until last week's show.
Hold #712: ARM BAR!

Upcoming Reviews:
FIP in 2005
ROH Validation
PWG All-Star Weekend V: Night 2
DGUSA Open the Ultimate Gate 2013
ROH/CMLL Global Wars Espectacular: Day 3

User avatar
Big Red Machine
Posts: 27378
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 15:12

Re: 2021 Wrestling Observer Awards

Post by Big Red Machine » Mar 2nd, '21, 20:43

cero2k wrote: Mar 2nd, '21, 10:22

I'm sure Dave would love to just watch CMLL and Kento Miyahara every day, but he has to talk about The Miz because he has to talk about the biggest promotions in the world, not his preferences. I talk about my favorite promotions and I have never had a reply to my TJPW or Stardom reviews. Same with Red' EVOLVE stuff. It's not biases, it's supply and demand with Dave.
But the difference between us and Dave is that Dave has sway. If Dave started talking about All Japan or NXT UK or CMLL every week, people would watch them more. And especially for stuff that he apparently was watching but not talking about, like 205 Live. It would have been five extra minutes out of his day to just include it in the damn radio show, but he never did.
Hold #712: ARM BAR!

Upcoming Reviews:
FIP in 2005
ROH Validation
PWG All-Star Weekend V: Night 2
DGUSA Open the Ultimate Gate 2013
ROH/CMLL Global Wars Espectacular: Day 3

User avatar
XIV
Posts: 1802
Joined: Aug 19th, '13, 11:38

Re: 2021 Wrestling Observer Awards

Post by XIV » Mar 2nd, '21, 20:53

Big Red Machine wrote: Mar 2nd, '21, 20:39
XIV wrote: Mar 2nd, '21, 12:02
cero2k wrote: Mar 2nd, '21, 10:22

Dave and Alvarez have always said that their content mirrors that what the fans ask about. I've always complained that their power could give promotions like Impact better credence with the fans, but since no one asks about them, they never talk about them. If they're AEW heavy right now, then it's not because Dave is pushing it, but because the fanbase IS talking about AEW, and watching AEW, and liking the product, and hence people are voting for it. I don't think it's the best promotion either, but when considering these are American based fans, I can totally see how AEW was the best promotion, for sure in the US, a MILES.

I'm sure Dave would love to just watch CMLL and Kento Miyahara every day, but he has to talk about The Miz because he has to talk about the biggest promotions in the world, not his preferences. I talk about my favorite promotions and I have never had a reply to my TJPW or Stardom reviews. Same with Red' EVOLVE stuff. It's not biases, it's supply and demand with Dave.

You're saying it like he's booking Serpentico in the main event. He has booked some great main event storylines with Jericho vs Mox, Page & Omega, Mox vs Kingston, the whole MJF vs Inner Circle. Is he perfect, no of course not, but he's doing better than many. If you ask me, Sanshiro Takagi would had won, but you'd be flipping your head because he books DDT. Who in your opinion was the booker of the year and I can pinpoint all the stuff that such person failed at too.
Booker of the year this year? Probably for me? Hunter Johnston / Delirious.

I don’t think ROH TV is the best most watchable show out there BUT, find me reasons why he’s not Booker of the year. Most stories have made sense, he hasn’t booked any murder mysteries, he hasn’t booked a guy fighting himself street fighter style and hasn’t booked every world title match as a gimmick match.

He booked a very competitive and competent Pure Title picture and generally the shows make a decent amount of sense as build from the start to the end in the way a good show should.

So that’s some of my reasoning, so please, counter this as to why Tony Khan is a better Booker. Also, you should leave Omega v Page booking out, seeing as that hasn’t actually really happened and they’ve dropped the ball on Page.
For 2020, I think the sample size is too small, but I would generally agree with everything you said about ROH's booking... up until last week's show.
Technically that came after the award voting, so wouldn’t count 😂😂

But, he’s liable to the occasional fuck-up, it’s not perfect, but in terms of booking a competent product, that flows nicely isn’t schizophrenic and generally follows through planned story arcs, I’d have to go with Delirious.
Have A Nice Day!

User avatar
Big Red Machine
Posts: 27378
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 15:12

Re: 2021 Wrestling Observer Awards

Post by Big Red Machine » Mar 2nd, '21, 20:54

cero2k wrote: Mar 2nd, '21, 09:52
Big Red Machine wrote: Feb 27th, '21, 22:30
AEW's big drop-off happened BEFORE the pandemic.
Am I a nit-picker? Yes. There is a reason that the person whose opinion on the wrestling business I respect most is Lance Storm.
But I think that when you build yourself up the way AEW did (with their records and "sports-like presentation" and all of those other things that Cody and especially Tony Khan told the media) and then repeatedly fail to deliver on that- even if some of those ways are small- you tell viewers that you're full of sh*t and your promises and hype are not to be trusted.
Yeah, the drop out of curiosity, the same drop out that literally all TV shows have. 4 months in to a completely new promotion. Where you honestly expecting that everyone that would watch on day 1 would just stay regardless? Of course not, and it doesn't have to be due to quality, a lot of people just can't watch it live. After those curious left, it's been steady (news aside), and have kept a strong demo, even beating RAW on many occasions.

I'm going to deal with the other paragraph in a separate post because that's a big thing right there, but as for this, all of those 500,000 or so people from the first few months were potential fans who were turned off by what they saw. I think it would behoove AEW to ask themselves "why?" Those were people willing to give a non-WWE product a chance, but they decided not to keep watching, and AEW doesn't have any of the usual excuses to fall back on like a lack of known stars or subpar production values or lack of a big, hot crowd that someone ROH or MLW or TNA have. These people were turned off by something/s that AEW did. If you fix whatever their problems were (and they have friends or a reviewer they like or whatever who is still watching to tell them that things have been fixed), they'll give you another chance.
Hold #712: ARM BAR!

Upcoming Reviews:
FIP in 2005
ROH Validation
PWG All-Star Weekend V: Night 2
DGUSA Open the Ultimate Gate 2013
ROH/CMLL Global Wars Espectacular: Day 3

User avatar
Big Red Machine
Posts: 27378
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 15:12

Re: 2021 Wrestling Observer Awards

Post by Big Red Machine » Mar 2nd, '21, 20:57

XIV wrote: Mar 2nd, '21, 20:53
Big Red Machine wrote: Mar 2nd, '21, 20:39
XIV wrote: Mar 2nd, '21, 12:02

Booker of the year this year? Probably for me? Hunter Johnston / Delirious.

I don’t think ROH TV is the best most watchable show out there BUT, find me reasons why he’s not Booker of the year. Most stories have made sense, he hasn’t booked any murder mysteries, he hasn’t booked a guy fighting himself street fighter style and hasn’t booked every world title match as a gimmick match.

He booked a very competitive and competent Pure Title picture and generally the shows make a decent amount of sense as build from the start to the end in the way a good show should.

So that’s some of my reasoning, so please, counter this as to why Tony Khan is a better Booker. Also, you should leave Omega v Page booking out, seeing as that hasn’t actually really happened and they’ve dropped the ball on Page.
For 2020, I think the sample size is too small, but I would generally agree with everything you said about ROH's booking... up until last week's show.
Technically that came after the award voting, so wouldn’t count 😂😂

But, he’s liable to the occasional fuck-up, it’s not perfect, but in terms of booking a competent product, that flows nicely isn’t schizophrenic and generally follows through planned story arcs, I’d have to go with Delirious.
1. You should watch wXw and NXT UK

2. It's not the "occasional f*ck-up" with Delirious, in my opinion. It's at least six times out of ten when it comes to the big moment that he f*cks it up (at least over the past five years or so).
Hold #712: ARM BAR!

Upcoming Reviews:
FIP in 2005
ROH Validation
PWG All-Star Weekend V: Night 2
DGUSA Open the Ultimate Gate 2013
ROH/CMLL Global Wars Espectacular: Day 3

User avatar
Big Red Machine
Posts: 27378
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 15:12

Re: 2021 Wrestling Observer Awards

Post by Big Red Machine » Mar 2nd, '21, 21:57

cero2k wrote: Mar 2nd, '21, 09:52

I also don't know why people are so fixated with 'sports-like presentation' and records, for one, it's being taken sooooo literally, and two, things evolve and need to be adapted, I think people forget that none of these guys are experienced bookers OR promoters. "Promises and hype are not to be trusted", c'mon, you didn't start watching wrestling with AEW, there is not a single promotion in the world where you could and if there is, then they're stupid for not evolving as necessary. People who left because it wasn't 'sports-like presentation' where never going to follow it anyway.
Why are people so fixated on the "sports-like presentation" and the records? Because THE F*CKING BOSS/PROMOTER/BOOKER TOLD US THAT WE SHOULD BE. The idea that "promises and hype are not to be trusted" does not apply to talk about what the fundamental basis of the product will be. If you tell me "hey BRM, I just direct this documentary about polar bears. Do you want to see it?" and I say "sure, I love documentaries about polar bears!" and then you show me the movie and instead of a documentary on polar bears it's actually a buddy-cop movie, I'm going to be pretty pissed. Or, to use a wrestling context; ROH promoted their first show by promising no bullsh*t finishes. If they had done a bullsh*t finish on the first show, do you think people would have come back for the second show?

And it's the same for Cody telling us that we don't need to watch BTE or any other shoulder content to understand what's going on. If the booker says that, then we have no reason not to believe him (and he'd be an idiot to tell us that if it wasn't true).

Just because "none of these guys are experienced bookers or promoters" doesn't excuse them for doing a poor job. It just means that a poor job is more likely. And even so, it doesn't take an experienced booker or promoter to know that you don't go out there and tell Wade Keller or mainstream sports sites something about the fundamental nature of your product if you can't guarantee that that's the way things are going to be.

And I disagree that there isn't a single promotion in the world where you can't trust the hype. Look at Gabe-booked ROH and early EVOLVE. They said "no bullsh*t" and they avoided bullsh*t at all costs. Ditto for Baba when he changed direction at the end of the 80s (although he never said it out loud). ECW promised you "EXTREME!" and gave it to you. Ditto for CZW.

But even if the idea that "promises and hype are not to be trusted" were true, if I were AEW, I would make a priority to try to stand out by establishing myself as the promotion that does tell the truth. Being trustworthy is important in any endeavor where you are asking people to give you their money.

The issue is not that AEW evolved away from the "sports-like presentation" but rather that their entire run has been "we're a sports-like presentation... except for the times when we decide not to be." That's not "evolving." Evolution is a shift in one direction or the other. It's the curve on a graph, not a schizophrenically scattered set of points on a graph that can only be connect by zig-zagging.

And why do you assume that :people who left because it wasn't 'sports-like presentation' were never going to follow it anyway?" Isn't that one of the top criticisms of WWE? It stands to reason that a large of number of wrestling fans who don't watch WWE would be looking for a sports-based presentation.
Hold #712: ARM BAR!

Upcoming Reviews:
FIP in 2005
ROH Validation
PWG All-Star Weekend V: Night 2
DGUSA Open the Ultimate Gate 2013
ROH/CMLL Global Wars Espectacular: Day 3

User avatar
XIV
Posts: 1802
Joined: Aug 19th, '13, 11:38

Re: 2021 Wrestling Observer Awards

Post by XIV » Mar 3rd, '21, 00:43

Big Red Machine wrote: Mar 2nd, '21, 20:57
XIV wrote: Mar 2nd, '21, 20:53
Big Red Machine wrote: Mar 2nd, '21, 20:39

For 2020, I think the sample size is too small, but I would generally agree with everything you said about ROH's booking... up until last week's show.
Technically that came after the award voting, so wouldn’t count 😂😂

But, he’s liable to the occasional fuck-up, it’s not perfect, but in terms of booking a competent product, that flows nicely isn’t schizophrenic and generally follows through planned story arcs, I’d have to go with Delirious.
1. You should watch wXw and NXT UK

2. It's not the "occasional f*ck-up" with Delirious, in my opinion. It's at least six times out of ten when it comes to the big moment that he f*cks it up (at least over the past five years or so).
1. I LOVE NXT UK, I can’t wait for fans to be allowed back! WxW I haven’t tried in a long time.

2. But those fuck ups don’t expose or make fun of the business, nobody is getting pinned by an inanimate object. They are just a failure to deliver in the right way more often than not. In terms of actually booking, he’s definitely more proficient than than some out there.
Have A Nice Day!

User avatar
XIV
Posts: 1802
Joined: Aug 19th, '13, 11:38

Re: 2021 Wrestling Observer Awards

Post by XIV » Mar 3rd, '21, 00:45

Big Red Machine wrote: Mar 2nd, '21, 21:57
cero2k wrote: Mar 2nd, '21, 09:52

I also don't know why people are so fixated with 'sports-like presentation' and records, for one, it's being taken sooooo literally, and two, things evolve and need to be adapted, I think people forget that none of these guys are experienced bookers OR promoters. "Promises and hype are not to be trusted", c'mon, you didn't start watching wrestling with AEW, there is not a single promotion in the world where you could and if there is, then they're stupid for not evolving as necessary. People who left because it wasn't 'sports-like presentation' where never going to follow it anyway.
Why are people so fixated on the "sports-like presentation" and the records? Because THE F*CKING BOSS/PROMOTER/BOOKER TOLD US THAT WE SHOULD BE. The idea that "promises and hype are not to be trusted" does not apply to talk about what the fundamental basis of the product will be. If you tell me "hey BRM, I just direct this documentary about polar bears. Do you want to see it?" and I say "sure, I love documentaries about polar bears!" and then you show me the movie and instead of a documentary on polar bears it's actually a buddy-cop movie, I'm going to be pretty pissed. Or, to use a wrestling context; ROH promoted their first show by promising no bullsh*t finishes. If they had done a bullsh*t finish on the first show, do you think people would have come back for the second show?

And it's the same for Cody telling us that we don't need to watch BTE or any other shoulder content to understand what's going on. If the booker says that, then we have no reason not to believe him (and he'd be an idiot to tell us that if it wasn't true).

Just because "none of these guys are experienced bookers or promoters" doesn't excuse them for doing a poor job. It just means that a poor job is more likely. And even so, it doesn't take an experienced booker or promoter to know that you don't go out there and tell Wade Keller or mainstream sports sites something about the fundamental nature of your product if you can't guarantee that that's the way things are going to be.

And I disagree that there isn't a single promotion in the world where you can't trust the hype. Look at Gabe-booked ROH and early EVOLVE. They said "no bullsh*t" and they avoided bullsh*t at all costs. Ditto for Baba when he changed direction at the end of the 80s (although he never said it out loud). ECW promised you "EXTREME!" and gave it to you. Ditto for CZW.

But even if the idea that "promises and hype are not to be trusted" were true, if I were AEW, I would make a priority to try to stand out by establishing myself as the promotion that does tell the truth. Being trustworthy is important in any endeavor where you are asking people to give you their money.

The issue is not that AEW evolved away from the "sports-like presentation" but rather that their entire run has been "we're a sports-like presentation... except for the times when we decide not to be." That's not "evolving." Evolution is a shift in one direction or the other. It's the curve on a graph, not a schizophrenically scattered set of points on a graph that can only be connect by zig-zagging.

And why do you assume that :people who left because it wasn't 'sports-like presentation' were never going to follow it anyway?" Isn't that one of the top criticisms of WWE? It stands to reason that a large of number of wrestling fans who don't watch WWE would be looking for a sports-based presentation.
This.
AEW still put the wrestlers win/loss records on screen. But his initial promise was watered down by listening to his EVP’s who don’t know how to book anything and think everything is a joke so the “sports based” fell off.
Have A Nice Day!

User avatar
NWK2000
Posts: 1490
Joined: Feb 26th, '14, 00:52

Re: 2021 Wrestling Observer Awards

Post by NWK2000 » Mar 3rd, '21, 01:55

Meltzer is an incredibly hard working, thorough journalist. However, when he reports *his own opinions* that's just what they are, opinions. Wrestling fans are so horny to stan one promotion or another that they'll dogpile on anyone for expressing their opinions to a wide spread audience. The flip side to this is, why treat Meltzer's opinions like they're gospel. People are allowed to have their own.
NWK Reviews is closed for business for now.

User avatar
Big Red Machine
Posts: 27378
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 15:12

Re: 2021 Wrestling Observer Awards

Post by Big Red Machine » Mar 3rd, '21, 08:21

NWK2000 wrote: Mar 3rd, '21, 01:55 Meltzer is an incredibly hard working, thorough journalist. However, when he reports *his own opinions* that's just what they are, opinions. Wrestling fans are so horny to stan one promotion or another that they'll dogpile on anyone for expressing their opinions to a wide spread audience. The flip side to this is, why treat Meltzer's opinions like they're gospel. People are allowed to have their own.
The problem is that people do treat Dave's opinions like they're gospel.
Hold #712: ARM BAR!

Upcoming Reviews:
FIP in 2005
ROH Validation
PWG All-Star Weekend V: Night 2
DGUSA Open the Ultimate Gate 2013
ROH/CMLL Global Wars Espectacular: Day 3

User avatar
NWK2000
Posts: 1490
Joined: Feb 26th, '14, 00:52

Re: 2021 Wrestling Observer Awards

Post by NWK2000 » Mar 3rd, '21, 08:53

Big Red Machine wrote: Mar 3rd, '21, 08:21
NWK2000 wrote: Mar 3rd, '21, 01:55 Meltzer is an incredibly hard working, thorough journalist. However, when he reports *his own opinions* that's just what they are, opinions. Wrestling fans are so horny to stan one promotion or another that they'll dogpile on anyone for expressing their opinions to a wide spread audience. The flip side to this is, why treat Meltzer's opinions like they're gospel. People are allowed to have their own.
The problem is that people do treat Dave's opinions like they're gospel.
But I'm asking, why? Like any other human being, Dave is prone to bias and just being incorrect despite his best observation. I think the controversy this has caused is less a reflection on Meltzer and more on the lack of critical thinking and the increase of tribalism amongst the people who read his publications.
NWK Reviews is closed for business for now.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests