2021 Wrestling Observer Awards

Tell it to the world!!
User avatar
cero2k
Site Admin
Posts: 20950
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 11:32

2021 Wrestling Observer Awards

Post by cero2k » Feb 26th, '21, 10:04

Quick compilation of the top winners. I didn't want to copy paste the whole thing since I paid 8 hrs of work for it, but if anyone has a question about a category or a result, I can look up more info

As a reminder, these are fan voted, open to all WON subscribers

CAT A

LOU THESZ/RIC FLAIR AWARD (WRESTLER OF THE YEAR)
1. JON MOXLEY (883) 4,873
2. Kenny Omega (110) 1,375
3. Tetsuya Naito (38) 957

MOST OUTSTANDING WRESTLER
1. KENNY OMEGA (276) 2,196
2. Kota Ibushi (273) 2,140
3. Shingo Takagi (126) 1,475

TAG TEAM OF THE YEAR
1. YOUNG BUCKS (653) 4,283
2. Kenny Omega & Adam Page (409) 3,554
3. FTR (97) 2,106

BEST ON INTERVIEWS
1. EDDIE KINGSTON (474) 3,478
2. Jon Moxley (373) 3,132
3. MJF (222) 2,095

PROMOTION OF THE YEAR
1. ALL ELITE WRESTLING (1,097) 5,717
2. New Japan Pro Wrestling (140) 3,157
3. World Wrestling Entertainment (12) 776

BEST WEEKLY TV SHOW
1. AEW DYNAMITE (1,151) 5,994
2. WWE NXT (20) 1,655
3. Being the Elite (24) 1,265

PRO WRESTLING MATCH OF THE YEAR
1. YOUNG BUCKS VS. KENNY OMEGA & ADAM PAGE 2/29 CHICAGO(733) 4,285
2. Kazuchika Okada vs. Kota Ibushi 1/4 Tokyo (176) 1,929
3. Young Bucks vs. FTR 11/7 Jacksonville (66) 809


CAT B

UNITED STATES/CANADA MVP
1. JON MOXLEY 955
2. Kenny Omega 109
3. Cody Rhodes 80

JAPANESE MVP
1. TETSUYA NAITO 372
2. Kota Ibushi 334
3. Go Shiozaki 158

MEXICO MVP
1. REY FENIX 258
2. Laredo Kid 135
3, Pagano 69

HODGE AWARD/NON-HEAVYWEIGHT MVP
1. HIROMU TAKAHASHI 853
2. Rey Fenix 84
3. Darby Allin 36

WOMEN’S WRESTLING MVP
1. BAYLEY 258
2. Mayu Iwatani 238
3. Sasha Banks 206

BEST BOX OFFICE DRAW
1. CONOR MCGREGOR 349
2. Jon Moxley 270
3. Chris Jericho 143

FEUD OF THE YEAR
1. JON MOXLEY VS. EDDIE KINGSTON 384
2. Cody Rhodes vs. Brodie Lee 119
3. Kenny Omega vs. Adam Page 75

MOST IMPROVED
1. BRITT BAKER 161
2. Giulia 155
3. John Silver 79

MOST CHARISMATIC
1. MJF 179
2. Orange Cassidy 171
3. Jon Moxley 157

BRYAN DANIELSON AWARD (BEST TECHNICAL WRESTLER)
1. ZACK SABRE JR. 770
2. Daniel Bryan 153
3. Jonathan Gresham 89

BRUISER BRODY MEMORIAL AWARD (BEST BRAWLER)
1. JON MOXLEY 389
2. Tomohiro Ishii 263
3. Brodie Lee 235

BEST FLYING WRESTLER
1. REY FENIX 866
2. Will Ospreay 147
3. Hiromu Takahashi 139

MOST OVERRATED
1. BRAY WYATT 444
2. Evil 209
3. King Corbin 132

MOST UNDERRATED
1. RICOCHET 320
2. Chad Gable 109
3. Riddle 50

ROOKIE OF THE YEAR
1. PAT MCAFEE 355
2. Anna Jay 216
3. SB Kento 158

BEST NON-WRESTLER
1. TAZ 741
2. Paul Heyman 225
3. Don Callis 102

BEST TELEVISION ANNOUNCER
1. EXCALIBUR 402
2. Kevin Kelly 389
3. Tony Schiavone 323

WORST TELEVISION ANNOUNCER
1. MICHAEL COLE 384
2. Corey Graves 224
3. Beth Phoenix 155

BEST MAJOR WRESTLING SHOW
1. AEW REVOLUTION 2/29 CHICAGO 306
2. NJPW WrestleKingdom 1/4 Tokyo 294
3. NJPW G-1 Climax 10/10 Osaka 231

WORST MAJOR WRESTLING SHOW
1. WWE SUPER SHOWDOWN 2/27 RIYADH 619
2. WWE Horror Show at Extreme Rules 7/19 Winter Park, FL 240
3. WWE WrestleMania 4/5 Winter Park, FL 99

BEST WRESTLING MANEUVER
1. KENNY OMEGA ONE WINGED ANGEL 373
2. Adam Page buckshot lariat 114
3. Omega & Page buckshot V trigger 60

MOST DISGUSTING PROMOTIONAL TACTIC
1. WWE FIRING PEOPLE DURING A PANDEMIC DURING A YEAR WHERE THEY WERE SETTING PROFIT RECORDS 616
2. WWE operating for months without COVID testing 247
3. WWE stopping talent from third party opportunities 63

WORST TELEVISION SHOW
1. WWE RAW 1,117
2. Impact Wrestling 25
3. WWE Smackdown 24

WORST MATCH OF THE YEAR
1. BRAUN STROWMAN VS. THE FIEND 7/29 WINTER PARK, FL 179
2. Bill Goldberg vs. The Fiend 2/27 Riyadh, Saudi Arabia 170
3. Matt Hardy vs. Sammy Guevara 9/5 Jacksonville 148

WORST FEUD OF THE YEAR
1. BRAY WYATT VS. BRAUN STROWMAN 301
2. Bray Wyatt vs. Randy Orton 192
3. Lana vs. Nia Jax 161

WORST PROMOTION OF THE YEAR
1. WORLD WRESTLING ENTERTAINMENT 1,019
2. Impact Wrestling 93
3. Ring of Honor 31

BEST BOOKER
1. TONY KHAN 1,022
2. Gedo 149
3. Nosawa Rongai 37

PROMOTER OF THE YEAR
1. TONY KHAN 1,056
2. Dana White 40
3. Sanshiro Takagi 21

BEST GIMMICK
1. ORANGE CASSIDY 386
2. Brodie Lee 167
3. Roman Reigns 142

WORST GIMMICK
1. THE FIEND BRAY WYATT 470
2, Retribution 116
3. Alexa Bliss 63

BEST PRO WRESTLING BOOK
1. YOUNG BUCKS: KILLING THE BUSINESS FROM THE BACKYARDS TO THE BIG LEAGUES BY MATT & NICK MASSIE 348
2. The Eighth Wonder of the World: The True Story of Andre the Giant by Pat Laprade and Bertrand Hebert 145
3. Under the Black Hat: My Life in the WWE and Beyond by Jim Ross 120

BEST PRO WRESTLING DOCUMENTARY
1. DARK SIDE OF THE RING: OWEN HART 378
2. Dark Side of the Ring: Chris Benoit 240
3. WWE The Last Ride 142
Image

User avatar
cero2k
Site Admin
Posts: 20950
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 11:32

Re: 2021 Wrestling Observer Awards

Post by cero2k » Feb 26th, '21, 10:07

Quick thoughts

- WON subscribers don't watch Japanese wrestling outside of NJPW. Mexico either for that matter.

- Rookie of the Year only had 2 matches all year, there should be a minimum amount of matches to even be considered a active wrestler.

- People still vote for Impact out of habit, it's not the best, but it surely wasn't the worst this year.
Image

User avatar
XIV
Posts: 1802
Joined: Aug 19th, '13, 11:38

Re: 2021 Wrestling Observer Awards

Post by XIV » Feb 26th, '21, 10:09

Dave Meltzer and his followers have fuckin' lost it.

Tony Khan as booker of the year? Fuck that, he's booked some of the worst shit I've ever seen in a wrestling show.
The whole thing is levied to be AEW heavy because he's everyone's friend at AEW. It's a complete joke. Best Gimmick Orange Cassidy? No. No. What an awful gimmick.

WON is absolutely trash now because Dave Meltzer lost the ability to be impartial and is so biased towards AEW and against WWE.

Garbage.
Have A Nice Day!

User avatar
cero2k
Site Admin
Posts: 20950
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 11:32

Re: 2021 Wrestling Observer Awards

Post by cero2k » Feb 26th, '21, 10:25

XIV wrote: Feb 26th, '21, 10:09 Dave Meltzer and his followers have fuckin' lost it.

Tony Khan as booker of the year? Fuck that, he's booked some of the worst shit I've ever seen in a wrestling show.
The whole thing is levied to be AEW heavy because he's everyone's friend at AEW. It's a complete joke. Best Gimmick Orange Cassidy? No. No. What an awful gimmick.

WON is absolutely trash now because Dave Meltzer lost the ability to be impartial and is so biased towards AEW and against WWE.

Garbage.
lol, i knew you'd complain as I was writing it.
Image

User avatar
XIV
Posts: 1802
Joined: Aug 19th, '13, 11:38

Re: 2021 Wrestling Observer Awards

Post by XIV » Feb 26th, '21, 10:36

cero2k wrote: Feb 26th, '21, 10:25
XIV wrote: Feb 26th, '21, 10:09 Dave Meltzer and his followers have fuckin' lost it.

Tony Khan as booker of the year? Fuck that, he's booked some of the worst shit I've ever seen in a wrestling show.
The whole thing is levied to be AEW heavy because he's everyone's friend at AEW. It's a complete joke. Best Gimmick Orange Cassidy? No. No. What an awful gimmick.

WON is absolutely trash now because Dave Meltzer lost the ability to be impartial and is so biased towards AEW and against WWE.

Garbage.
lol, i knew you'd complain as I was writing it.
There are some things up there that absolutely deserve to be in there. There are things that do not. Tony Khan and Orange Cassidy are two of those things.

I don't think Moxley is the best worker or wrestler by any stretch BUT he has had a massive impact in the last 12 months, so there's an argument for that. AEW Dynamite is probably the best weekly show overall because there are parts which are decent, so I support that too. I'm not anti-AEW, I like everyone else want it to succeed, so I am frustrated when they do and book stupid shit, which is a weekly occurrence, which if it happened in WWE people like Meltzer would crucify, but because it happens in AEW it automatically gets a pass.

To describe Orange Cassidy as "charismatic" is just stupid and his name shouldn't have been on the ballot.
Excalibur is an awful announcer. Seriously, awful.

It's just so AEW heavy in the good columns and WWE heavy in the bad ones that surely people have to see how biased Dave Meltzer is these days. He and his newsletter are worthless and it's not just that WWE do worse stuff.

Worst Gimmick for example, you really telling me that The Fiend is worse than a Librarian? or a wrestling dinosaur?
Have A Nice Day!

User avatar
Big Red Machine
Posts: 27378
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 15:12

Re: 2021 Wrestling Observer Awards

Post by Big Red Machine » Feb 26th, '21, 10:58

cero2k wrote: Feb 26th, '21, 10:07

- People still vote for Impact out of habit, it's not the best, but it surely wasn't the worst this year.
I can see the arguments for voting for ROH (if you didn't like the Pure Rules and can't deal with the lack of a crowd) or Impact (if you feel that their worst sins outweighed whatever good they might have done). Do I agree that either promotion was worse than WWE? Absolutely not. But I can at least see an argument that Impact's worst stuff was worse than WWE's (again, I don't agree, but I can see it), and if you're looking for production, then I can definitely see not voting for WWE for the worst.
Hold #712: ARM BAR!

Upcoming Reviews:
FIP in 2005
ROH Validation
PWG All-Star Weekend V: Night 2
DGUSA Open the Ultimate Gate 2013
ROH/CMLL Global Wars Espectacular: Day 3

User avatar
Big Red Machine
Posts: 27378
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 15:12

Re: 2021 Wrestling Observer Awards

Post by Big Red Machine » Feb 26th, '21, 11:20

XIV wrote: Feb 26th, '21, 10:09 Dave Meltzer and his followers have fuckin' lost it.

Tony Khan as booker of the year? Fuck that, he's booked some of the worst shit I've ever seen in a wrestling show.
The whole thing is levied to be AEW heavy because he's everyone's friend at AEW. It's a complete joke. Best Gimmick Orange Cassidy? No. No. What an awful gimmick.

WON is absolutely trash now because Dave Meltzer lost the ability to be impartial and is so biased towards AEW and against WWE.

Garbage.
It's not just that. Kingston vs. Moxley for feud of the year? Really?
And Brodie Lee for the best gimmick? What gimmick was that? A half-assed cult leader who did inside comedy? Is that really better than Roman Reigns (or any of the usual "ass-kicker champion" guys like Drew or Moxley or Cole)?

I do think that people have left the Observer voting orbit because of Dave's biased coverage. I'd be very curious to see how similar or different things would look is the Torch did voting awards, as they actually have people focused on pretty much everything but Lucha (admittedly a weak spot for them. Or maybe Radical also covers Lucha but I don't know about it because I find him so boring).
Everything I've heard about the Bucks' book is that it is essentially just a "this is what we did. Aren't we great" book with very little in the way of any sort of reflection. As Todd Martin put it "it's a book for people who like the Young Bucks. If you didn't like the Young Bucks before, reading this book won't do anything to make them feel more likable." The fact that that book won says a lot about who is voting in the Observer awards.

And the idea that people are still voting for Gedo as Booker of the Year when those same people have been doing so much complaining about the interference and the Money Clip, etc. is ridiculous.

And, of course, the dumbf*cks still have no idea what a "promotional tactic" is.

Jim Ross no being the worst announcer of the year is ridiculous. Say what you will about Cole, but at least when he says dumb sh*t, it's because he's being told to (and ditto with pretty much everyone else in WWE, although I'm not totally sure that some of Byron's dumb sh*t in discussions isn't things he says on his own). No one is telling Jim Ross what to say, and he is saying TERRIBLE things.

I also detect some wokeness voting in people saying that Hardy vs. Guevara was the worst mach of the year. You can not like what happened, but the match itself was not lose to the worst match of the year.
I think the Goldberg vs. Fiend hate is similarly misplaced, but by people angry at the booking instead of lax safety procedures.



If you want to talk about someone who gets voted for "out of habit," I think it's Corbin for being most overrated. The dude really wasn't featured much this year except as a spot-filler. More appropriate names for that spot would be Miz and Morrison (who got a lot of TV time even without much of a push), Karrion Kross (depending on your impressions of his in-ring ability), and Nyla Rose (ditto with Kross, but I understand that some people don't like her promos, either).
I'm a little more ambivalent on EVIL. I think the booking hurt him, but I also never thought he was a real top-level guy, either.

I agree about the Rookie of the year standards being dumb.

Bayley winning the women's MVP is ridiculous. She was annoying and her only great matches were against Banks. I haven't watched anything from Iwatani this year, but to me, the person who deserves that award is clearly Thunder Rosa.
Hold #712: ARM BAR!

Upcoming Reviews:
FIP in 2005
ROH Validation
PWG All-Star Weekend V: Night 2
DGUSA Open the Ultimate Gate 2013
ROH/CMLL Global Wars Espectacular: Day 3

User avatar
XIV
Posts: 1802
Joined: Aug 19th, '13, 11:38

Re: 2021 Wrestling Observer Awards

Post by XIV » Feb 26th, '21, 11:37

Big Red Machine wrote: Feb 26th, '21, 11:20
XIV wrote: Feb 26th, '21, 10:09 Dave Meltzer and his followers have fuckin' lost it.

Tony Khan as booker of the year? Fuck that, he's booked some of the worst shit I've ever seen in a wrestling show.
The whole thing is levied to be AEW heavy because he's everyone's friend at AEW. It's a complete joke. Best Gimmick Orange Cassidy? No. No. What an awful gimmick.

WON is absolutely trash now because Dave Meltzer lost the ability to be impartial and is so biased towards AEW and against WWE.

Garbage.
It's not just that. Kingston vs. Moxley for feud of the year? Really?
And Brodie Lee for the best gimmick? What gimmick was that? A half-assed cult leader who did inside comedy? Is that really better than Roman Reigns (or any of the usual "ass-kicker champion" guys like Drew or Moxley or Cole)?

I do think that people have left the Observer voting orbit because of Dave's biased coverage. I'd be very curious to see how similar or different things would look is the Torch did voting awards, as they actually have people focused on pretty much everything but Lucha (admittedly a weak spot for them. Or maybe Radical also covers Lucha but I don't know about it because I find him so boring).
Everything I've heard about the Bucks' book is that it is essentially just a "this is what we did. Aren't we great" book with very little in the way of any sort of reflection. As Todd Martin put it "it's a book for people who like the Young Bucks. If you didn't like the Young Bucks before, reading this book won't do anything to make them feel more likable." The fact that that book won says a lot about who is voting in the Observer awards.

And the idea that people are still voting for Gedo as Booker of the Year when those same people have been doing so much complaining about the interference and the Money Clip, etc. is ridiculous.

And, of course, the dumbf*cks still have no idea what a "promotional tactic" is.

Jim Ross no being the worst announcer of the year is ridiculous. Say what you will about Cole, but at least when he says dumb sh*t, it's because he's being told to (and ditto with pretty much everyone else in WWE, although I'm not totally sure that some of Byron's dumb sh*t in discussions isn't things he says on his own). No one is telling Jim Ross what to say, and he is saying TERRIBLE things.

I also detect some wokeness voting in people saying that Hardy vs. Guevara was the worst mach of the year. You can not like what happened, but the match itself was not lose to the worst match of the year.
I think the Goldberg vs. Fiend hate is similarly misplaced, but by people angry at the booking instead of lax safety procedures.



If you want to talk about someone who gets voted for "out of habit," I think it's Corbin for being most overrated. The dude really wasn't featured much this year except as a spot-filler. More appropriate names for that spot would be Miz and Morrison (who got a lot of TV time even without much of a push), Karrion Kross (depending on your impressions of his in-ring ability), and Nyla Rose (ditto with Kross, but I understand that some people don't like her promos, either).
I'm a little more ambivalent on EVIL. I think the booking hurt him, but I also never thought he was a real top-level guy, either.

I agree about the Rookie of the year standards being dumb.

Bayley winning the women's MVP is ridiculous. She was annoying and her only great matches were against Banks. I haven't watched anything from Iwatani this year, but to me, the person who deserves that award is clearly Thunder Rosa.
I can't fault much in what you're saying. Fact is that WON has truly shown this year that it's done as an impartial look at the wrestling world. The fact Kenny Omega also made WON Hall of Fame this year also helps to demonstrate that.

Brodie Lee's gimmick was horrible, the whole Dork Order was bad. It could have been something, but they dropped the ball in the early days.

JR has been horrible on commentary, often just going into business for himself or saying things that hurt what was happening on screen, no matter how bad something is, your commentator should be professional enough to either cover it over or make it feel less shit. JR doesn't do that, he highlights the bad stuff by using one-liners.
Have A Nice Day!

User avatar
cero2k
Site Admin
Posts: 20950
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 11:32

Re: 2021 Wrestling Observer Awards

Post by cero2k » Feb 26th, '21, 12:11

XIV wrote: Feb 26th, '21, 10:36
There are some things up there that absolutely deserve to be in there. There are things that do not. Tony Khan and Orange Cassidy are two of those things.

I don't think Moxley is the best worker or wrestler by any stretch BUT he has had a massive impact in the last 12 months, so there's an argument for that. AEW Dynamite is probably the best weekly show overall because there are parts which are decent, so I support that too. I'm not anti-AEW, I like everyone else want it to succeed, so I am frustrated when they do and book stupid shit, which is a weekly occurrence, which if it happened in WWE people like Meltzer would crucify, but because it happens in AEW it automatically gets a pass.

To describe Orange Cassidy as "charismatic" is just stupid and his name shouldn't have been on the ballot.
Excalibur is an awful announcer. Seriously, awful.

It's just so AEW heavy in the good columns and WWE heavy in the bad ones that surely people have to see how biased Dave Meltzer is these days. He and his newsletter are worthless and it's not just that WWE do worse stuff.

Worst Gimmick for example, you really telling me that The Fiend is worse than a Librarian? or a wrestling dinosaur?
Do you listen to WOR? Meltzer is the biggest apologist of WWE out there behind that dumbass Ryan Satin, week in week out, WWE does completely stupid things and Dave is always excusing it as "part of the plan", "give it time", "it doesn't matter", "I thought it was good". Do you know who he has been most critical of the last year? AEW and NJPW! He's been constantly shitting on 50% of the booking of either promotion. If he were to actually have a bias, he also holds them at a higher critical bar.

I don't know what you consider 'charismatic', but OC IS charismatic. Is it the best gimmick in the world? hell no, not at all, but there is no denying that he's not charismatic and he makes that gimmick work. The wrestling business is at the end of the day, about getting the fans to like you and pay to watch you, and in that sense, OC is doing a better job than may other, he's getting people to pay for this merch and matches. Do you want to argue that 'wrestling is not what it used to be and now it's trash', go ahead, but he and most in AEW are evolving with that fanbase in order to keep making money. What's the point that Dragon Gate or AJPW and CMLL are so transfixed in 'wrestling perfection' and 'traditional' if you're not getting people to pay for you?

If it's AEW heavy, then maybe it's because it was the better promotion in the US this year, it's not hard to believe to be honest. ROH/Impact/MLW had nil reach all of 2020, WWE has been garbage and we all know it, NJPW's hype didn't live to the expectations, NWA and most of the strong indies were absent, and Americans are clearly not watching enough Dragon Gate and Stardom and DDT. It doesn't have to be a conspiracy theory that people like what a minority doesn't.

I personally think Excalibur is the best on commentary, he has triple the knowledge than everyone else out there now a days, he's smart, perfect reaction time. I don't think that there is anyone that can touch him in play-by-play right now.

The Fiend is without question the worst gimmick in the world hands down. But even so, you're comparing the MAIN EVENT gimmick of the wealthiest promotion in the world vs one midcard gimmick and one that barely even makes it to the youtube show. That's like saying that the worst promotion of the year was Essex Pro Wrestling that only 30 locals went to see. If we want to see it in terms of relevancy, the Fiend has hurt and derailed WWE and some careers way more than 'a dinosaur'.
Image

User avatar
XIV
Posts: 1802
Joined: Aug 19th, '13, 11:38

Re: 2021 Wrestling Observer Awards

Post by XIV » Feb 26th, '21, 12:30

cero2k wrote: Feb 26th, '21, 12:11
XIV wrote: Feb 26th, '21, 10:36
There are some things up there that absolutely deserve to be in there. There are things that do not. Tony Khan and Orange Cassidy are two of those things.

I don't think Moxley is the best worker or wrestler by any stretch BUT he has had a massive impact in the last 12 months, so there's an argument for that. AEW Dynamite is probably the best weekly show overall because there are parts which are decent, so I support that too. I'm not anti-AEW, I like everyone else want it to succeed, so I am frustrated when they do and book stupid shit, which is a weekly occurrence, which if it happened in WWE people like Meltzer would crucify, but because it happens in AEW it automatically gets a pass.

To describe Orange Cassidy as "charismatic" is just stupid and his name shouldn't have been on the ballot.
Excalibur is an awful announcer. Seriously, awful.

It's just so AEW heavy in the good columns and WWE heavy in the bad ones that surely people have to see how biased Dave Meltzer is these days. He and his newsletter are worthless and it's not just that WWE do worse stuff.

Worst Gimmick for example, you really telling me that The Fiend is worse than a Librarian? or a wrestling dinosaur?
Do you listen to WOR? Meltzer is the biggest apologist of WWE out there behind that dumbass Ryan Satin, week in week out, WWE does completely stupid things and Dave is always excusing it as "part of the plan", "give it time", "it doesn't matter", "I thought it was good". Do you know who he has been most critical of the last year? AEW and NJPW! He's been constantly shitting on 50% of the booking of either promotion. If he were to actually have a bias, he also holds them at a higher critical bar.

I don't know what you consider 'charismatic', but OC IS charismatic. Is it the best gimmick in the world? hell no, not at all, but there is no denying that he's not charismatic and he makes that gimmick work. The wrestling business is at the end of the day, about getting the fans to like you and pay to watch you, and in that sense, OC is doing a better job than may other, he's getting people to pay for this merch and matches. Do you want to argue that 'wrestling is not what it used to be and now it's trash', go ahead, but he and most in AEW are evolving with that fanbase in order to keep making money. What's the point that Dragon Gate or AJPW and CMLL are so transfixed in 'wrestling perfection' and 'traditional' if you're not getting people to pay for you?

If it's AEW heavy, then maybe it's because it was the better promotion in the US this year, it's not hard to believe to be honest. ROH/Impact/MLW had nil reach all of 2020, WWE has been garbage and we all know it, NJPW's hype didn't live to the expectations, NWA and most of the strong indies were absent, and Americans are clearly not watching enough Dragon Gate and Stardom and DDT. It doesn't have to be a conspiracy theory that people like what a minority doesn't.

I personally think Excalibur is the best on commentary, he has triple the knowledge than everyone else out there now a days, he's smart, perfect reaction time. I don't think that there is anyone that can touch him in play-by-play right now.

The Fiend is without question the worst gimmick in the world hands down. But even so, you're comparing the MAIN EVENT gimmick of the wealthiest promotion in the world vs one midcard gimmick and one that barely even makes it to the youtube show. That's like saying that the worst promotion of the year was Essex Pro Wrestling that only 30 locals went to see. If we want to see it in terms of relevancy, the Fiend has hurt and derailed WWE and some careers way more than 'a dinosaur'.
Dave's criticism of WWE and of AEW comes from different places, you cannot straight up tell me that Dave doesn't treat them differently, he does. So bad, I'm really not sure how you can defend him. He's so in AEW's pocket it's unreal and uses Twitter to "educate" (berate) people who don't see things the way he does. Lets not forget that he recently took credit for influencing the top bookers of every promotion in the last 28 years.

Orange Cassidy's gimmick is to be half-arsed, arrive, put your hands in your pocket, say nothing, roll about a bit, do some average wrestling, put some sunglasses on and raise half a thumb. Anyone can do that. I don't see it as charismatic. You can't say that OC is having any impact in terms of people wanting to see him when AEW's viewership is stagnant.

AEW is the best weekly Wrestling show, I admit that much. But there's stuff from AEW that doesn't belong that's there purely because it's AEW. I'm not sure how you can dispute that.

We will never agree on Excalibur, I think his voice and delivery is that of someone calling old wrestling tapes in the building, when he shouts "Tope Suicina" it makes me shudder every time.

The Fiend is not as bad a gimmick as some out there. From my perspective, I'd argue Orange Cassidy has an awful gimmick for the reasons I mentioned just above. But I know not everyone has the same viewpoint as me. I for one would rather watch The Fiend's bullshit over Orange Cassidy's bullshit.
Have A Nice Day!

User avatar
Big Red Machine
Posts: 27378
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 15:12

Re: 2021 Wrestling Observer Awards

Post by Big Red Machine » Feb 26th, '21, 13:27

I never got the sense that we were supposed to believe that Luchasaurus was a shoot dinosaur. He's a dude in a dinasaur-themed lucha mask. He doesn't bother me.


I haven't listened to WOR in a while (I'm mostly just paying to listen to Lance Storm and Bryan & Vinny's retro stuff, plus to read the Observer). If Dave is saying "wait and see" a lot more with WWE, then he is being more balanced, but in the direction of being more lenient on WWE rather than raising his standards for his favorite promotions.

On the "part of the plan" thing, I will defend Dave here in that something being part of a plan doesn't necessarily mean that it's good. It simply means that whatever happened here that people might not have liked was a necessary step to get somewhere else, so don't judge this as if it was the end of the matter.
Hold #712: ARM BAR!

Upcoming Reviews:
FIP in 2005
ROH Validation
PWG All-Star Weekend V: Night 2
DGUSA Open the Ultimate Gate 2013
ROH/CMLL Global Wars Espectacular: Day 3

User avatar
Big Red Machine
Posts: 27378
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 15:12

Re: 2021 Wrestling Observer Awards

Post by Big Red Machine » Feb 26th, '21, 13:32

I do think that there are A LOT of fans who are hypocritical when it comes to what they'll accept from AEW that they won't accept from WWE or New Japan or TNA.

A lot of people have given AEW a lot of benefit of the doubt when it comes to things that are supposedly "part of a larger plan" or what will/won't bring in fans, etc. and at this point, I think it's fair to say that the vast majority of that was undeserved. They have proved that they have their crowd of AEW hardcores, and that's about it.
Hold #712: ARM BAR!

Upcoming Reviews:
FIP in 2005
ROH Validation
PWG All-Star Weekend V: Night 2
DGUSA Open the Ultimate Gate 2013
ROH/CMLL Global Wars Espectacular: Day 3

User avatar
XIV
Posts: 1802
Joined: Aug 19th, '13, 11:38

Re: 2021 Wrestling Observer Awards

Post by XIV » Feb 26th, '21, 13:55

Big Red Machine wrote: Feb 26th, '21, 13:32 They have proved that they have their crowd of AEW hardcores, and that's about it.
This is my point earlier about Orange Cassidy and the Charisma comment.

AEW has their audience. The same people watching every week. Orange Cassidy isn’t getting you new fans, he’s not a ratings mover with his “charisma” as Cero seemed to allude to earlier.
Have A Nice Day!

User avatar
Big Red Machine
Posts: 27378
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 15:12

Re: 2021 Wrestling Observer Awards

Post by Big Red Machine » Feb 26th, '21, 14:37

XIV wrote: Feb 26th, '21, 13:55
Big Red Machine wrote: Feb 26th, '21, 13:32 They have proved that they have their crowd of AEW hardcores, and that's about it.
This is my point earlier about Orange Cassidy and the Charisma comment.

AEW has their audience. The same people watching every week. Orange Cassidy isn’t getting you new fans, he’s not a ratings mover with his “charisma” as Cero seemed to allude to earlier.
I don't think that's a fair definition of charisma.
Hold #712: ARM BAR!

Upcoming Reviews:
FIP in 2005
ROH Validation
PWG All-Star Weekend V: Night 2
DGUSA Open the Ultimate Gate 2013
ROH/CMLL Global Wars Espectacular: Day 3

User avatar
XIV
Posts: 1802
Joined: Aug 19th, '13, 11:38

Re: 2021 Wrestling Observer Awards

Post by XIV » Feb 26th, '21, 14:53

Big Red Machine wrote: Feb 26th, '21, 14:37
XIV wrote: Feb 26th, '21, 13:55
Big Red Machine wrote: Feb 26th, '21, 13:32 They have proved that they have their crowd of AEW hardcores, and that's about it.
This is my point earlier about Orange Cassidy and the Charisma comment.

AEW has their audience. The same people watching every week. Orange Cassidy isn’t getting you new fans, he’s not a ratings mover with his “charisma” as Cero seemed to allude to earlier.
I don't think that's a fair definition of charisma.
If you take base definition, “compelling attractiveness or charm that can inspire devotion in others” then yes. Maybe so.
Have A Nice Day!

User avatar
cero2k
Site Admin
Posts: 20950
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 11:32

Re: 2021 Wrestling Observer Awards

Post by cero2k » Feb 26th, '21, 16:40

Big Red Machine wrote: Feb 26th, '21, 13:32 I do think that there are A LOT of fans who are hypocritical when it comes to what they'll accept from AEW that they won't accept from WWE or New Japan or TNA.

A lot of people have given AEW a lot of benefit of the doubt when it comes to things that are supposedly "part of a larger plan" or what will/won't bring in fans, etc. and at this point, I think it's fair to say that the vast majority of that was undeserved. They have proved that they have their crowd of AEW hardcores, and that's about it.
tell a promotion right now that is not down to 'hardcores', look at WWE ratings, Americans watching Japan/Mexico stuff is even beyond hardcores, and we don't even need to bring up what level of hardcore it takes to follow Impact and ROH. They do get a benefit of the doubt because they're less than 2 yrs old and their whole first year went under a pandemic. They've fucked up a lot of things and tried to fixed a lot. Just like you say that Impact lost all 'benefit of the doubt' on you, WWE has done the same to literally millions. AEW hasn't done that one fuck up that pushes people away, so for it's people that just don't like (or don't want to like) the style.
Image

User avatar
cero2k
Site Admin
Posts: 20950
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 11:32

Re: 2021 Wrestling Observer Awards

Post by cero2k » Feb 26th, '21, 16:57

XIV wrote: Feb 26th, '21, 12:30
Dave's criticism of WWE and of AEW comes from different places, you cannot straight up tell me that Dave doesn't treat them differently, he does. So bad, I'm really not sure how you can defend him. He's so in AEW's pocket it's unreal and uses Twitter to "educate" (berate) people who don't see things the way he does. Lets not forget that he recently took credit for influencing the top bookers of every promotion in the last 28 years.

Orange Cassidy's gimmick is to be half-arsed, arrive, put your hands in your pocket, say nothing, roll about a bit, do some average wrestling, put some sunglasses on and raise half a thumb. Anyone can do that. I don't see it as charismatic. You can't say that OC is having any impact in terms of people wanting to see him when AEW's viewership is stagnant.

AEW is the best weekly Wrestling show, I admit that much. But there's stuff from AEW that doesn't belong that's there purely because it's AEW. I'm not sure how you can dispute that.

We will never agree on Excalibur, I think his voice and delivery is that of someone calling old wrestling tapes in the building, when he shouts "Tope Suicina" it makes me shudder every time.

The Fiend is not as bad a gimmick as some out there. From my perspective, I'd argue Orange Cassidy has an awful gimmick for the reasons I mentioned just above. But I know not everyone has the same viewpoint as me. I for one would rather watch The Fiend's bullshit over Orange Cassidy's bullshit.
There is no way I believe that you're into the whole Dave is in AEW's pocket conspiracy theory. All it takes is for you to read his newsletter and listen to his recaps/reviews to know how preposterous that is.

A lot of people could also flip people off and drink beer and never hold a candle to Stone Cold. Gimmick are not about being unique or something that only I can do, it's about performing a character and making the connection with the people. It works for him. It's ok to not like it, but that doesn't make it bad. You're saying he's not a ratings move, well yeah, no one is, and two, he's a midcard guy!

"Tope Suicida" is what the move is called. It's was literally innovated in Mexico by luchadores. Excalibur calls moves by their name, you can't fault the man for doing his homework and watching things outside of American wrestling. WWE commentary is NOT the right way to do commentary.

That's fair. If you've been on Twitter or Facebook or Reddit, there are a lot of people who love The Fiend, and Alexa Bliss, and all the black goo and hocus pocus. There are also a LOT of people who like OC. I don't care for either, I rather watch Toru Yano matches. To each their own. But OC winning is not illegitimate, or a stolen vote, a lot of people love him, including TONS of kids, whose parents are subbed on the newsletter.
Image

User avatar
Big Red Machine
Posts: 27378
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 15:12

Re: 2021 Wrestling Observer Awards

Post by Big Red Machine » Feb 27th, '21, 17:14

XIV wrote: Feb 26th, '21, 14:53
Big Red Machine wrote: Feb 26th, '21, 14:37
XIV wrote: Feb 26th, '21, 13:55

This is my point earlier about Orange Cassidy and the Charisma comment.

AEW has their audience. The same people watching every week. Orange Cassidy isn’t getting you new fans, he’s not a ratings mover with his “charisma” as Cero seemed to allude to earlier.
I don't think that's a fair definition of charisma.
If you take base definition, “compelling attractiveness or charm that can inspire devotion in others” then yes. Maybe so.
Let me rephrase. It's a good definition of charisma, but if you're using ratings numbers to judge it, then it also doesn't apply to the likes of Finn Balor, Adam Cole, Moxley, etc.
Hold #712: ARM BAR!

Upcoming Reviews:
FIP in 2005
ROH Validation
PWG All-Star Weekend V: Night 2
DGUSA Open the Ultimate Gate 2013
ROH/CMLL Global Wars Espectacular: Day 3

User avatar
Big Red Machine
Posts: 27378
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 15:12

Re: 2021 Wrestling Observer Awards

Post by Big Red Machine » Feb 27th, '21, 17:18

cero2k wrote: Feb 26th, '21, 16:40
Big Red Machine wrote: Feb 26th, '21, 13:32 I do think that there are A LOT of fans who are hypocritical when it comes to what they'll accept from AEW that they won't accept from WWE or New Japan or TNA.

A lot of people have given AEW a lot of benefit of the doubt when it comes to things that are supposedly "part of a larger plan" or what will/won't bring in fans, etc. and at this point, I think it's fair to say that the vast majority of that was undeserved. They have proved that they have their crowd of AEW hardcores, and that's about it.
tell a promotion right now that is not down to 'hardcores', look at WWE ratings, Americans watching Japan/Mexico stuff is even beyond hardcores, and we don't even need to bring up what level of hardcore it takes to follow Impact and ROH. They do get a benefit of the doubt because they're less than 2 yrs old and their whole first year went under a pandemic. They've fucked up a lot of things and tried to fixed a lot. Just like you say that Impact lost all 'benefit of the doubt' on you, WWE has done the same to literally millions. AEW hasn't done that one fuck up that pushes people away, so for it's people that just don't like (or don't want to like) the style.
They generally haven't had that "one big f*ck-up," yes, but there have been more than enough little things to make me remove the benefit of the doubt where most people in AEW are concerned. They (and NXT) aren't in the WWE/WCW/TNA situation where they are pushing people away because they never really had those people in the first place. But there were a lot of people who sampled AEW in those first few months who clearly decided not to keep watching.
Hold #712: ARM BAR!

Upcoming Reviews:
FIP in 2005
ROH Validation
PWG All-Star Weekend V: Night 2
DGUSA Open the Ultimate Gate 2013
ROH/CMLL Global Wars Espectacular: Day 3

User avatar
cero2k
Site Admin
Posts: 20950
Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 11:32

Re: 2021 Wrestling Observer Awards

Post by cero2k » Feb 27th, '21, 19:39

Big Red Machine wrote: Feb 27th, '21, 17:18
They generally haven't had that "one big f*ck-up," yes, but there have been more than enough little things to make me remove the benefit of the doubt where most people in AEW are concerned. They (and NXT) aren't in the WWE/WCW/TNA situation where they are pushing people away because they never really had those people in the first place. But there were a lot of people who sampled AEW in those first few months who clearly decided not to keep watching.
Yeah, but you are also, and I say this in praise, one of the biggest nitpickers I've ever met. The people they have 'lost' since they're debut are not necessarily people that left because of the show, a lot of them were never gonna stick with it to begin with, obviously most people tuned in, even the WWE cultists, in order to see what the whole thing was about. Then you have the pandemic that a lot of people have blamed for dropping off wrestling altogether. NXT has dropped about the same amount since debuting on USA and potentially more since they were on the network. AEW's booking isn't exactly driving people off.
Image

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Ahrefs [Bot] and 5 guests