Your 5 star matches

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NWK2000
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Re: Your 5 star matches

Post by NWK2000 » Mar 5th, '20, 11:43

Big Red Machine wrote:
Mar 5th, '20, 09:23
NWK2000 wrote:
Mar 5th, '20, 08:34
PAC vs Orange Cassidy AEW Revolution
Oh f*ck off. Now you're just trolling.
Like, I get why it's not your cup of tea. There's a mythos behind Orange Cassidy that is unconventional to professional wrestling,, in that he's a monstrously good wrestler, he's just too apathetic to care except when provoked, which is part of why I like it . However, I understand that questions such as "If he's so apathetic, then why is he a professional wrestler?" are completely valid, but let's put that aside for a moment. I understand the logical inconsistencies of such a character, and with such unorthodox characters you need a character on the other side of the ring with the skills to convey a match that creates maximum investment. But PAC is probably one of the best in the business right now besides maybe Orton, Jericho, and MJF, of portraying a smarmy, arrogant, heel very nearly hoisted by his own petard, which is why that match was such complete and utter magic for me. Now, will AEW be able to bottle that magic on a monthly basis? Honestly probably not, because this is a character that requires such intricate storytelling that, 9/10 times wrestling companies fail at doing, usually almost immediately. But for that one shining month of build, the mythos of Orange Cassidy was upheld and presented in a way that created maximum investment.
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Re: Your 5 star matches

Post by Big Red Machine » Mar 5th, '20, 12:04

NWK2000 wrote:
Mar 5th, '20, 11:43
Big Red Machine wrote:
Mar 5th, '20, 09:23
NWK2000 wrote:
Mar 5th, '20, 08:34
PAC vs Orange Cassidy AEW Revolution
Oh f*ck off. Now you're just trolling.
Like, I get why it's not your cup of tea. There's a mythos behind Orange Cassidy that is unconventional to professional wrestling,, in that he's a monstrously good wrestler, he's just too apathetic to care except when provoked, which is part of why I like it . However, I understand that questions such as "If he's so apathetic, then why is he a professional wrestler?" are completely valid, but let's put that aside for a moment. I understand the logical inconsistencies of such a character, and with such unorthodox characters you need a character on the other side of the ring with the skills to convey a match that creates maximum investment. But PAC is probably one of the best in the business right now besides maybe Orton, Jericho, and MJF, of portraying a smarmy, arrogant, heel very nearly hoisted by his own petard, which is why that match was such complete and utter magic for me. Now, will AEW be able to bottle that magic on a monthly basis? Honestly probably not, because this is a character that requires such intricate storytelling that, 9/10 times wrestling companies fail at doing, usually almost immediately. But for that one shining month of build, the mythos of Orange Cassidy was upheld and presented in a way that created maximum investment.
I just didn't see that much in the match. Yes, there was a story there with him starting to try, but even if someone felt the story was well told, I just didn't think there was enough substance to it. I can understand someone giving it an 8 or even a 9 if they thought the storytelling was amazingly strong, but it just didn't feel like it there was enough to be a 10.

Let me put it another way: if you have this at 10, why not Cody vs. MJF?
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Re: Your 5 star matches

Post by NWK2000 » Mar 5th, '20, 13:08

Big Red Machine wrote:
Mar 5th, '20, 12:04
NWK2000 wrote:
Mar 5th, '20, 11:43
Big Red Machine wrote:
Mar 5th, '20, 09:23


Oh f*ck off. Now you're just trolling.
Like, I get why it's not your cup of tea. There's a mythos behind Orange Cassidy that is unconventional to professional wrestling,, in that he's a monstrously good wrestler, he's just too apathetic to care except when provoked, which is part of why I like it . However, I understand that questions such as "If he's so apathetic, then why is he a professional wrestler?" are completely valid, but let's put that aside for a moment. I understand the logical inconsistencies of such a character, and with such unorthodox characters you need a character on the other side of the ring with the skills to convey a match that creates maximum investment. But PAC is probably one of the best in the business right now besides maybe Orton, Jericho, and MJF, of portraying a smarmy, arrogant, heel very nearly hoisted by his own petard, which is why that match was such complete and utter magic for me. Now, will AEW be able to bottle that magic on a monthly basis? Honestly probably not, because this is a character that requires such intricate storytelling that, 9/10 times wrestling companies fail at doing, usually almost immediately. But for that one shining month of build, the mythos of Orange Cassidy was upheld and presented in a way that created maximum investment.
I just didn't see that much in the match. Yes, there was a story there with him starting to try, but even if someone felt the story was well told, I just didn't think there was enough substance to it. I can understand someone giving it an 8 or even a 9 if they thought the storytelling was amazingly strong, but it just didn't feel like it there was enough to be a 10.

Let me put it another way: if you have this at 10, why not Cody vs. MJF?
I went out of the way to watch Orange/PAC individually because a friend that attended the show live spoke very highly of it. When I watch Cody/MJF I'll make a separate post, comparing/contrasting the two if it doesn't warrant a 10/10.
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Re: Your 5 star matches

Post by NWK2000 » Mar 5th, '20, 13:35

Okay, add Cody vs MJF at AEW Revolution to the list. If PAC vs Cassidy is a 10/10 then MJF vs Cody is also a 10/10. It reminded me on one hand like Hogan vs Piper when Piper had Bob Orton in his corner, where the heel bumped forever and ever (and the idea of Arn coaching Cody so he doesn't fall into babyface in a grudge match mistakes early was brilliant. When MJF had the heat it reminded me of an Ole Anderson classic, grinding on body parts for the whole match. I also like the way they skirted around interference, at least early. This would've been a six star match if not for the finish, which, while contrived in that modern wrestling sense, it makes sense for MJF's stock to rise as he's likely next in line to wrestle Moxley.
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Re: Your 5 star matches

Post by Thelone » Mar 5th, '20, 16:19

NWK2000 wrote:
Mar 5th, '20, 11:43
Like, I get why it's not your cup of tea. There's a mythos behind Orange Cassidy that is unconventional to professional wrestling,, in that he's a monstrously good wrestler, he's just too apathetic to care except when provoked, which is part of why I like it.
And here's your problem because what would be "provoked" exactly? Like should his opponent just play kick and do jack shit as well or be scared to death to do anything like Cassidy was Lesnar or something? Here, you have a comedy clown with undercarders who will tolerate his cutesy shit while he's supposed to be this big threat to upper/top guys who won't take any of it.

This gimmick could be interesting if he was a manager for some inept heel who couldn't win to save his life. Cassidy could do his lazy "I don't give a fuck" stuff like barely trying to trip someone or "kick" the opponent while he's down or just do nothing in general, then one day he actually trips someone somehow and the guy wants to get his hands on Cassidy, but he destroys the guy instead and throws his dead carcass in the ring for the crappy heel to finally win a match. From there, you can go in multiple directions :
  • Shitty heel only wins when Cassidy beats up his opponent, he realises it and turns on him to become a wrestler
  • Same, but he joins a higher profile heel instead
  • Shitty heel actually improves and only needs Cassidy for higher profile matches
  • Most likely something else I'm not thinking about right now
It's kind of the same thing with Statlander. They shouldn't have debuted her with the indy gimmick of being a fucking alien, but she's clearly a space nerd so you can name a bunch of signature moves around that (have a submission hold named the Tidal Lock, her big finisher the Big Bang, and just use the Rings of Saturn as well) and use some space puns during promos (as long as they don't feel too silly and/or forced of course).

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Re: Your 5 star matches

Post by cero2k » Mar 6th, '20, 09:52

Thelone wrote:
Mar 5th, '20, 16:19
NWK2000 wrote:
Mar 5th, '20, 11:43
Like, I get why it's not your cup of tea. There's a mythos behind Orange Cassidy that is unconventional to professional wrestling,, in that he's a monstrously good wrestler, he's just too apathetic to care except when provoked, which is part of why I like it.
And here's your problem because what would be "provoked" exactly? Like should his opponent just play kick and do jack shit as well or be scared to death to do anything like Cassidy was Lesnar or something? Here, you have a comedy clown with undercarders who will tolerate his cutesy shit while he's supposed to be this big threat to upper/top guys who won't take any of it.
it can be anything really, it doesn't have to be a set of things, it shouldn't be a specific button that everyone knows off. This story is one that needs to be taken as if it was real life, like if the wrestlers and fans knew the same about him. No one took him seriously up until they saw what he can do at revolution, now SOME people should take him seriously, some people should push him to try in a positive manner, some people should try to provoke him by any means necessary (like putting the Brutalizer on his best friend Chuck Taylor hint hint), and maybe later, he'll decide to try for himself because he wants a championship or something.
This is a character with A LOT of potential if AEW is smart and brave enough to not make him a shtick, which he isn't one yet (come at me Red!), and see him progress to someone who tries, fails, stops trying, tries again, stuff like that. If this was WWE, they'd make him a Santino Marella snake shtick and he would only do that one thing and never progress, AEW can do a lot here.
Thelone wrote:
Mar 5th, '20, 16:19
It's kind of the same thing with Statlander. They shouldn't have debuted her with the indy gimmick of being a fucking alien, but she's clearly a space nerd so you can name a bunch of signature moves around that (have a submission hold named the Tidal Lock, her big finisher the Big Bang, and just use the Rings of Saturn as well) and use some space puns during promos (as long as they don't feel too silly and/or forced of course).
Everyone says this, but we haven't actually seen her be an alien, we haven't seen her in a spaceship or anything like that, for all we know so far, she's delirious and Excalibur is an enabler. Tony and JR don't pretend she's an alien. The fans can side with them or Excalibur and take her for what they want. I mean, it's the same with Luchasaurus being a dinosaur or QT Marshall a wrestler.

WWE went out of their way to show that Undertaker could come back from the dead and that he had lighting powers, that's something that we just can't ignore anymore. AEW hasn't crossed that line just yet.

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Re: Your 5 star matches

Post by Big Red Machine » Mar 6th, '20, 11:56

cero2k wrote:
Mar 6th, '20, 09:52
Thelone wrote:
Mar 5th, '20, 16:19
NWK2000 wrote:
Mar 5th, '20, 11:43
Like, I get why it's not your cup of tea. There's a mythos behind Orange Cassidy that is unconventional to professional wrestling,, in that he's a monstrously good wrestler, he's just too apathetic to care except when provoked, which is part of why I like it.
And here's your problem because what would be "provoked" exactly? Like should his opponent just play kick and do jack shit as well or be scared to death to do anything like Cassidy was Lesnar or something? Here, you have a comedy clown with undercarders who will tolerate his cutesy shit while he's supposed to be this big threat to upper/top guys who won't take any of it.
it can be anything really, it doesn't have to be a set of things, it shouldn't be a specific button that everyone knows off. This story is one that needs to be taken as if it was real life, like if the wrestlers and fans knew the same about him. No one took him seriously up until they saw what he can do at revolution, now SOME people should take him seriously, some people should push him to try in a positive manner, some people should try to provoke him by any means necessary (like putting the Brutalizer on his best friend Chuck Taylor hint hint), and maybe later, he'll decide to try for himself because he wants a championship or something.
This is a character with A LOT of potential if AEW is smart and brave enough to not make him a shtick, which he isn't one yet (come at me Red!), and see him progress to someone who tries, fails, stops trying, tries again, stuff like that. If this was WWE, they'd make him a Santino Marella snake shtick and he would only do that one thing and never progress, AEW can do a lot here.
Ask and you shall receive. Kind of.

What you have laid out here is an EXCELLENT story. If this is what happens, I will praise AEW for it. But I dont think it will, and here is why:
The damaging trend in pro wrestling for the last 6-8 years or so has been to bend towards doing whatever gets the pop. We see this everywhere from WWE taking something that got a good reaction and beating it into the ground-with fans often even encouraging such things with mindless chanting (Rusev Day) to booking that defaults to putting the babyfaces over at almost every turn, damaging the value of wins and losses and making it difficult to create credible hel contenders (ROH, and a few other indies, too), to TNA wasting time with stuff like Broken Hardys segments even though they never actually advanced a story, to all of the problems i had with the BC civil war (compare that to Bucks/Page/Omega and see how much better the latter us and how much more sense it makes) to the booking of gimmick matche at every turn to... well... f*cking Orange Cassidy being on national TV. And I dont see that trend stopping anytime soon.
The natural conclusion of the story you propose results in Orange Cassidy eventually phasing out all of the spots that get him his easy pops. I don't see him doing that, dont see AEW wanting him to do that, and the only fans who are going to cheer him more than they do now after that has happened are the people like me, who hate that sh*y and don't want to see it.
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Re: Your 5 star matches

Post by Big Red Machine » Mar 6th, '20, 12:08

cero2k wrote:
Thelone wrote:
Mar 5th, '20, 16:19
It's kind of the same thing with Statlander. They shouldn't have debuted her with the indy gimmick of being a fucking alien, but she's clearly a space nerd so you can name a bunch of signature moves around that (have a submission hold named the Tidal Lock, her big finisher the Big Bang, and just use the Rings of Saturn as well) and use some space puns during promos (as long as they don't feel too silly and/or forced of course).
Everyone says this, but we haven't actually seen her be an alien, we haven't seen her in a spaceship or anything like that, for all we know so far, she's delirious and Excalibur is an enabler. Tony and JR don't pretend she's an alien. The fans can side with them or Excalibur and take her for what they want. I mean, it's the same with Luchasaurus being a dinosaur or QT Marshall a wrestler.

WWE went out of their way to show that Undertaker could come back from the dead and that he had lighting powers, that's something that we just can't ignore anymore. AEW hasn't crossed that line just yet.
1. No one think Luchasaurus is kayfabe really a dinosaur, and Luchasaurus doesn't act like a dinosaur. He is basically what Thelone is suggesting they do with Statlander.
The scenario you have laid out with Statlander us technically a logical explanation, but what is the benefit to it? You get to have her boop people on your TV? Is that really worth the cost of the people who will be turned off to the product by an announcer trying to tell us that this woman is a space alien?

2. Taker... is a beloved relic of a bygone era. And it's not the magic that makes him beloved, but rather the nostalgia of having wrestled for so long in those eras. If he something stopped doing magic tomorrow he'd stat just as over.
He's like Tojo Yamamoto, minus the racism. An excellent character who can be appreciated for his contributions, but his overness is not an excuse to try something like that today, now that the business has moved past it (obviously excluding settling like LU or CHIKARA, which stipulate such thing being within the realm of kayfabe realism).
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Re: Your 5 star matches

Post by cero2k » Mar 6th, '20, 12:10

Big Red Machine wrote:
Mar 6th, '20, 11:56
The natural conclusion of the story you propose results in Orange Cassidy eventually phasing out all of the spots that get him his easy pops. I don't see him doing that, dont see AEW wanting him to do that, and the only fans who are going to cheer him more than they do now after that has happened are the people like me, who hate that sh*y and don't want to see it.
Having Jericho there with them gives me trust that they'll understand that they can't make a career out of one shtick alone and that they need to progress and evolve. It's not about getting rid of the pops, but rather, find something else that gets you those pops. I trust that among them all in the creative side, they'll be able to come up with those pops.

I don't think it's a mistake to bring in people with their indie gimmicks, I want to believe that they understand better than I do that running a weekly show is not the same as the indies and that gimmicks now need progression. If I can see it, they HAVE to see it too.

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Re: Your 5 star matches

Post by Big Red Machine » Mar 6th, '20, 12:14

cero2k wrote:
Mar 6th, '20, 12:10
Big Red Machine wrote:
Mar 6th, '20, 11:56
The natural conclusion of the story you propose results in Orange Cassidy eventually phasing out all of the spots that get him his easy pops. I don't see him doing that, dont see AEW wanting him to do that, and the only fans who are going to cheer him more than they do now after that has happened are the people like me, who hate that sh*y and don't want to see it.
Having Jericho there with them gives me trust that they'll understand that they can't make a career out of one shtick alone and that they need to progress and evolve. It's not about getting rid of the pops, but rather, find something else that gets you those pops. I trust that among them all in the creative side, they'll be able to come up with those pops.

I don't think it's a mistake to bring in people with their indie gimmicks, I want to believe that they understand better than I do that running a weekly show is not the same as the indies and that gimmicks now need progression. If I can see it, they HAVE to see it too.
Some indy gimmicks are fine, some need tweaks, some need to be scrapped. No different than anything else. But if you're trying to appeal to new/lapsed fans, I think it's a lot safer to just not have Orange Cassidy at all than to have him and try to evolve him, because you run the risk of turning people off before you ever get out of the phase where you're establishing the status quo ante.
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Re: Your 5 star matches

Post by cero2k » Mar 6th, '20, 12:23

Big Red Machine wrote:
Mar 6th, '20, 12:08

1. No one think Luchasaurus is kayfabe really a dinosaur, and Luchasaurus doesn't act like a dinosaur. He is basically what Thelone is suggesting they do with Statlander.
The scenario you have laid out with Statlander us technically a logical explanation, but what is the benefit to it? You get to have her boop people on your TV? Is that really worth the cost of the people who will be turned off to the product by an announcer trying to tell us that this woman is a space alien?

2. Taker... is a beloved relic of a bygone era. And it's not the magic that makes him beloved, but rather the nostalgia of having wrestled for so long in those eras. If he something stopped doing magic tomorrow he'd stat just as over.
He's like Tojo Yamamoto, minus the racism. An excellent character who can be appreciated for his contributions, but his overness is not an excuse to try something like that today, now that the business has moved past it (obviously excluding settling like LU or CHIKARA, which stipulate such thing being within the realm of kayfabe realism).
1. But HE thinks he's a dinosaur, at least a weird human version of it. Does anyone really believe that Statlander is an alien? are her actions really that alien-ish?
Benefit? It may seem like none right now, but it's part of a character and we have to see where it goes, these guys are not hot-shotting development. If someone is really being turned off the whole show because one woman is pretending to be an alien, then like Alvarez said, stop watching, go watch 80's crockett wrestling and be happy, this ain't for you if something so irrelevant is turning you off.

2. I could have used The Fiend, or The Boogeyman, or Su Yung in Impact, or Santino's snake being controlled by Khali's flute as the example, but I went with Taker. What i'm saying is that AEW hasn't fully crossed that wacky line yet, everything is still within this world.

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Re: Your 5 star matches

Post by cero2k » Mar 6th, '20, 12:27

Big Red Machine wrote:
Mar 6th, '20, 12:14

Some indy gimmicks are fine, some need tweaks, some need to be scrapped. No different than anything else. But if you're trying to appeal to new/lapsed fans, I think it's a lot safer to just not have Orange Cassidy at all than to have him and try to evolve him, because you run the risk of turning people off before you ever get out of the phase where you're establishing the status quo ante.
OC (as he is right now) has his target demo, it's not the pre-2001 lapse fan, it may not be the 'new' fan, but it's for the indie fan, the BTE fan, the post-punk-pipe-bomb-lapsed-fan maybe. No one can deny that OC is over with AEW's crowd right now, he is definitely working as of March 6, 2020.

a fan doesn't have to be into 100% of the acts.

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Re: Your 5 star matches

Post by Big Red Machine » Mar 6th, '20, 12:40

cero2k wrote:
Mar 6th, '20, 12:27
Big Red Machine wrote:
Mar 6th, '20, 12:14

Some indy gimmicks are fine, some need tweaks, some need to be scrapped. No different than anything else. But if you're trying to appeal to new/lapsed fans, I think it's a lot safer to just not have Orange Cassidy at all than to have him and try to evolve him, because you run the risk of turning people off before you ever get out of the phase where you're establishing the status quo ante.
OC (as he is right now) has his target demo, it's not the pre-2001 lapse fan, it may not be the 'new' fan, but it's for the indie fan, the BTE fan, the post-punk-pipe-bomb-lapsed-fan maybe. No one can deny that OC is over with AEW's crowd right now, he is definitely working as of March 6, 2020.

a fan doesn't have to be into 100% of the acts.
But those fans already like AEW, or at least know enough about it to make an informed decision. AEW already has all of those people watching.
Yes, people don't have to like 100% of the acts, but I think there are some acts that are-on their own- enough to turn people off to everything. For people who want to see their wrestling taken seriously or not be phony, OC is a sign that this is not a promotion for them. Even if he's just a fraction of the show, if he's one if the first things they see, they won't give AEW another chance.
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Re: Your 5 star matches

Post by cero2k » Mar 6th, '20, 12:56

Big Red Machine wrote:
Mar 6th, '20, 12:40
But those fans already like AEW, or at least know enough about it to make an informed decision. AEW already has all of those people watching.
Yes, people don't have to like 100% of the acts, but I think there are some acts that are-on their own- enough to turn people off to everything. For people who want to see their wrestling taken seriously or not be phony, OC is a sign that this is not a promotion for them. Even if he's just a fraction of the show, if he's one if the first things they see, they won't give AEW another chance.
exactly, feed those that are already paying your bills. The last thing you want to do is go against what the fans already love, right WWE? OC is for the current fans, some others are for the lapsed, some others are for the new, and so on.

oh man, i don't want to open another flood here, but i don't understand what part of OC is 'not taking wrestling serious'. No one sells for OC's weak stuff, this isn't a dong-plex we're talking about. OC doesn't try, that's ok, it's not like he's winning matches anyway.

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Re: Your 5 star matches

Post by Big Red Machine » Mar 7th, '20, 17:17

cero2k wrote:
Mar 6th, '20, 12:56
Big Red Machine wrote:
Mar 6th, '20, 12:40
But those fans already like AEW, or at least know enough about it to make an informed decision. AEW already has all of those people watching.
Yes, people don't have to like 100% of the acts, but I think there are some acts that are-on their own- enough to turn people off to everything. For people who want to see their wrestling taken seriously or not be phony, OC is a sign that this is not a promotion for them. Even if he's just a fraction of the show, if he's one if the first things they see, they won't give AEW another chance.
exactly, feed those that are already paying your bills. The last thing you want to do is go against what the fans already love, right WWE? OC is for the current fans, some others are for the lapsed, some others are for the new, and so on.
But OC isn't make-or-break for those people. Cody, Omega, the Bucks, Page, Pac, Lucha Bros., Jericho, Moxley, MJF: These are people who are make-or-break for fans. Or guys like Jungle Boy, Darby, and Guevara, where not using them feels like you're screning up with the next generation of stars you should be building. Orange Cassidy is a dude who gets pops because people like his schtick, but no one is going to not watch the show if he's not there; just like the Librarians.
And this isn't a WWE-like situation, There is a difference between something fans like and something that a large subset of fans might like, btu which might be inhibiting your growth with others.
And it's not like they'd have to get rid of OC. They just need to be more selective in how and where they use him. Confine him and his shenanigans to your YouTube shows or stuff on your website. Use him at house shows when you start running them. Just keep him out of the ring and away from physical confrontations with people, because every time he gets in one, it makes the company look like a joke.
And even if the situations were comparable, WWE not pushing Chad Gable well wouldn't be bothering people very much if they were doing a better job of with Bryan, Gulak, Zayn, Nakamura, Cesaro, Cedric, Rusev, Aleister Black, Ricochet, etc. AEW is not at the point where they need to worry about that. They're not even close.
cero2k wrote:
Mar 6th, '20, 12:56
oh man, i don't want to open another flood here, but i don't understand what part of OC is 'not taking wrestling serious'. No one sells for OC's weak stuff, this isn't a dong-plex we're talking about. OC doesn't try, that's ok, it's not like he's winning matches anyway.
No one sells for OC's kicks? You're not paying enough attention. The entire crowd sells for OC's kicks.

The issue isn't just that OC doesn't try. The issue is that OC doesn't try, and so he throws these purposely pathetically weak kicks, and the fans all pop for it like it's KENTA and Kawada kicking the sh*t out of each other. OC encourages the fans to treat the business like a joke.
And that's exactly what they're doing, but what the f*ck is likable about a slacker, especially in a sporting environment?
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cero2k
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Re: Your 5 star matches

Post by cero2k » Mar 8th, '20, 14:44

Big Red Machine wrote:
Mar 7th, '20, 17:17
But OC isn't make-or-break for those people. Cody, Omega, the Bucks, Page, Pac, Lucha Bros., Jericho, Moxley, MJF: These are people who are make-or-break for fans. Or guys like Jungle Boy, Darby, and Guevara, where not using them feels like you're screning up with the next generation of stars you should be building. Orange Cassidy is a dude who gets pops because people like his schtick, but no one is going to not watch the show if he's not there; just like the Librarians.
And this isn't a WWE-like situation, There is a difference between something fans like and something that a large subset of fans might like, btu which might be inhibiting your growth with others.
And it's not like they'd have to get rid of OC. They just need to be more selective in how and where they use him. Confine him and his shenanigans to your YouTube shows or stuff on your website. Use him at house shows when you start running them. Just keep him out of the ring and away from physical confrontations with people, because every time he gets in one, it makes the company look like a joke.
And even if the situations were comparable, WWE not pushing Chad Gable well wouldn't be bothering people very much if they were doing a better job of with Bryan, Gulak, Zayn, Nakamura, Cesaro, Cedric, Rusev, Aleister Black, Ricochet, etc. AEW is not at the point where they need to worry about that. They're not even close.
he's not a make-or-break, but everyone enjoys french fries with their burgers. Why would anyone in their right mind take away something from the fans which everyone in the arena is going crazy for, that's just plain stupid booking. people WANT to see him. He is not inhibiting the growth of anyone, he's helping the company grow. You're right, this isn't like WWE because WWE does constantly fuck up the growth of their wrestlers.
I hate to break it to you and Lynas, but OC is over, he's good for the company, he's not killing the business, and y'all are in the minority of haters.
Big Red Machine wrote:
Mar 7th, '20, 17:17
No one sells for OC's kicks? You're not paying enough attention. The entire crowd sells for OC's kicks.

The issue isn't just that OC doesn't try. The issue is that OC doesn't try, and so he throws these purposely pathetically weak kicks, and the fans all pop for it like it's KENTA and Kawada kicking the sh*t out of each other. OC encourages the fans to treat the business like a joke.
And that's exactly what they're doing, but what the f*ck is likable about a slacker, especially in a sporting environment?
Fans react to them, they're not selling, fans are in on the joke. Wrestlers don't sell the moves and THAT is what matters, hence they're not making a mockery of anything. If your problem is with the AEW crowd, then again, you either start watching it on mute, or this isn't for you, because fans are loud. This business IS a joke, it's been since Vince McMahon got into power, if you want everything to be 150% serious, go watch, idk, old Lance Storm tapes.
If you don't like slackers, that's fine, that's you. I like OC, I don't mind a slacker that is not crazy about money and titles and fame, who we now saw can actually go.

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Big Red Machine
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Re: Your 5 star matches

Post by Big Red Machine » Mar 8th, '20, 21:03

cero2k wrote:
Mar 8th, '20, 14:44
Big Red Machine wrote:
Mar 7th, '20, 17:17
But OC isn't make-or-break for those people. Cody, Omega, the Bucks, Page, Pac, Lucha Bros., Jericho, Moxley, MJF: These are people who are make-or-break for fans. Or guys like Jungle Boy, Darby, and Guevara, where not using them feels like you're screning up with the next generation of stars you should be building. Orange Cassidy is a dude who gets pops because people like his schtick, but no one is going to not watch the show if he's not there; just like the Librarians.
And this isn't a WWE-like situation, There is a difference between something fans like and something that a large subset of fans might like, btu which might be inhibiting your growth with others.
And it's not like they'd have to get rid of OC. They just need to be more selective in how and where they use him. Confine him and his shenanigans to your YouTube shows or stuff on your website. Use him at house shows when you start running them. Just keep him out of the ring and away from physical confrontations with people, because every time he gets in one, it makes the company look like a joke.
And even if the situations were comparable, WWE not pushing Chad Gable well wouldn't be bothering people very much if they were doing a better job of with Bryan, Gulak, Zayn, Nakamura, Cesaro, Cedric, Rusev, Aleister Black, Ricochet, etc. AEW is not at the point where they need to worry about that. They're not even close.
he's not a make-or-break, but everyone enjoys french fries with their burgers. Why would anyone in their right mind take away something from the fans which everyone in the arena is going crazy for, that's just plain stupid booking. people WANT to see him. He is not inhibiting the growth of anyone, he's helping the company grow. You're right, this isn't like WWE because WWE does constantly fuck up the growth of their wrestlers.
I hate to break it to you and Lynas, but OC is over, he's good for the company, he's not killing the business, and y'all are in the minority of haters.
He's the Arliss principle in reverse. Arliss was one of HBO's lowest-rated shows, but HBO kept it going because enough of Arliss' viewers were subscribing only for Arliss. If there are enough people for whom OC and the like are a breaking point, then he needs to be phased out from TV. You don't have to take him out of the arenas. He can do dark segments. Or use him on house shows (they are going to run house shows at some point, right?). Or use him on Dark.
cero2k wrote:
Mar 8th, '20, 14:44
Big Red Machine wrote:
Mar 7th, '20, 17:17
No one sells for OC's kicks? You're not paying enough attention. The entire crowd sells for OC's kicks.

The issue isn't just that OC doesn't try. The issue is that OC doesn't try, and so he throws these purposely pathetically weak kicks, and the fans all pop for it like it's KENTA and Kawada kicking the sh*t out of each other. OC encourages the fans to treat the business like a joke.
And that's exactly what they're doing, but what the f*ck is likable about a slacker, especially in a sporting environment?
Fans react to them, they're not selling, fans are in on the joke. Wrestlers don't sell the moves and THAT is what matters, hence they're not making a mockery of anything. If your problem is with the AEW crowd, then again, you either start watching it on mute, or this isn't for you, because fans are loud. This business IS a joke, it's been since Vince McMahon got into power, if you want everything to be 150% serious, go watch, idk, old Lance Storm tapes.
If you don't like slackers, that's fine, that's you. I like OC, I don't mind a slacker that is not crazy about money and titles and fame, who we now saw can actually go.
They are making a mockery of the business. You said it yourself:
fans are in on the joke
And you're using the Vince defense? Really? Do you realize how many holes there are in that? If Vince does it and everyone hates it, then shouldn't AEW avoid it? And if you're saying that Vince does it so therefore it's okay for AEW to do it, that's not a defense, either. It's just whataboutism.

You say that OC is a slacker and you "don't mind a slacker," but I don't think that's how the fans see it. If you ask them why they like Orange Cassidy they're not going to say "because he's a slacker." They're going to say "because he's funny."
You say he's "not crazy about money and titles," but if he's not out for money or titles (i.e. personal pride), and he's clearly not out for competition, what is he out for?
And you say that "not crazy about money and titles" part like it's a bad thing for someone to care about that sort of thing. Do you not like Cody and the Bucks for caring about those things?

And why do assume that I don't watch Lance Storm tapes every morning? If more people listened to Lance Storm, the wrestling business would be a much better place.
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cero2k
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Re: Your 5 star matches

Post by cero2k » Mar 9th, '20, 10:06

Big Red Machine wrote:
Mar 8th, '20, 21:03

He's the Arliss principle in reverse. Arliss was one of HBO's lowest-rated shows, but HBO kept it going because enough of Arliss' viewers were subscribing only for Arliss. If there are enough people for whom OC and the like are a breaking point, then he needs to be phased out from TV. You don't have to take him out of the arenas. He can do dark segments. Or use him on house shows (they are going to run house shows at some point, right?). Or use him on Dark.
that's a big 'IF', but just from reactions from the shows, twitter, reddit, and most forums, it seems like there is not enough people who dislike OC, it's just the vocal minority that hates AEW because, well, because it's AEW. OC is a plus to the show.

Big Red Machine wrote:
Mar 7th, '20, 17:17
They are making a mockery of the business. You said it yourself:
fans are in on the joke
And you're using the Vince defense? Really? Do you realize how many holes there are in that? If Vince does it and everyone hates it, then shouldn't AEW avoid it? And if you're saying that Vince does it so therefore it's okay for AEW to do it, that's not a defense, either. It's just whataboutism.

You say that OC is a slacker and you "don't mind a slacker," but I don't think that's how the fans see it. If you ask them why they like Orange Cassidy they're not going to say "because he's a slacker." They're going to say "because he's funny."
You say he's "not crazy about money and titles," but if he's not out for money or titles (i.e. personal pride), and he's clearly not out for competition, what is he out for?
And you say that "not crazy about money and titles" part like it's a bad thing for someone to care about that sort of thing. Do you not like Cody and the Bucks for caring about those things?

And why do assume that I don't watch Lance Storm tapes every morning? If more people listened to Lance Storm, the wrestling business would be a much better place.
I'm not excusing AEW for something Vince does, i'm implying that you're trying to protect a business that is already a mockery, and it's been like that before Orange Cassidy was even born. Fans suddenly chanting for a dude is not AEW mocking the business, nor it's hurting/killing the industry.

If people like him because he's funny, then that's ok, to each their own, he has many reasons to like him. I don't care for the comedy, but I like his character. It kinda reminds me of Saitama. And yes, to me greed is bad, no matter who they are, fake or real.

You could be watching double Storm videos if you stop watching wrestling you don't like.

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Re: Your 5 star matches

Post by NWK2000 » Mar 10th, '20, 09:27

Big Red Machine wrote:
Mar 8th, '20, 21:03

They are making a mockery of the business. You said it yourself:
I think you're looking at Orange exclusively on a surface level. And yeah, if you see a guy doing apathetic shin kicks, that is a mockery. But underneath that, when he's provoked, he taps into whatever power allowed him to almost beat PAC in that match. It's one of those three dimensional characters that wrestler tries but oft fails at. I'd like AEW to add to the Orange Cassidy character that explains that switch being flipped. Maybe he was bullied as a kid, and he thought being apathetic was the best way to avoid that stuff, but when he gets thrown around the anger reawakens. It doesn't have to be that, but something that gives Orange a little bit more chaacter. Having him shift between apathetic to a competent wrestler is completely incompetent if gone unexplained.
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Re: Your 5 star matches

Post by Big Red Machine » Mar 10th, '20, 17:05

cero2k wrote:
Mar 9th, '20, 10:06
Big Red Machine wrote:
Mar 8th, '20, 21:03

He's the Arliss principle in reverse. Arliss was one of HBO's lowest-rated shows, but HBO kept it going because enough of Arliss' viewers were subscribing only for Arliss. If there are enough people for whom OC and the like are a breaking point, then he needs to be phased out from TV. You don't have to take him out of the arenas. He can do dark segments. Or use him on house shows (they are going to run house shows at some point, right?). Or use him on Dark.
that's a big 'IF', but just from reactions from the shows, twitter, reddit, and most forums, it seems like there is not enough people who dislike OC, it's just the vocal minority that hates AEW because, well, because it's AEW. OC is a plus to the show.
And if you look and listen other places (a lot of Keller's people, Jason Powell and his people, people like me... and, yes, people more in the Jim Cornette mindset) he's a huge turn-off. You are making this assumption that everyone who dislikes these things "hates AEW because it's AEW" and is thus looking for a reason to complain, and that's just not true. I'm sure it is in some cases, but a lot of these are people who have been putting over pretty much everything Cody, MJF, Jericho, Moxley, Darby, and many others have done. Many of them love Jungle Boy and LuchaSaurus. A lot of them have enjoyed Britt Baker as a heel and Riho's in-ring work. Not everyone who hates Orange Cassidy and that ilk is hating it just to hate AEW.
cero2k wrote:
Mar 9th, '20, 10:06
Big Red Machine wrote:
Mar 7th, '20, 17:17
They are making a mockery of the business. You said it yourself:
fans are in on the joke
And you're using the Vince defense? Really? Do you realize how many holes there are in that? If Vince does it and everyone hates it, then shouldn't AEW avoid it? And if you're saying that Vince does it so therefore it's okay for AEW to do it, that's not a defense, either. It's just whataboutism.

You say that OC is a slacker and you "don't mind a slacker," but I don't think that's how the fans see it. If you ask them why they like Orange Cassidy they're not going to say "because he's a slacker." They're going to say "because he's funny."
You say he's "not crazy about money and titles," but if he's not out for money or titles (i.e. personal pride), and he's clearly not out for competition, what is he out for?
And you say that "not crazy about money and titles" part like it's a bad thing for someone to care about that sort of thing. Do you not like Cody and the Bucks for caring about those things?

And why do assume that I don't watch Lance Storm tapes every morning? If more people listened to Lance Storm, the wrestling business would be a much better place.
I'm not excusing AEW for something Vince does, i'm implying that you're trying to protect a business that is already a mockery, and it's been like that before Orange Cassidy was even born. Fans suddenly chanting for a dude is not AEW mocking the business, nor it's hurting/killing the industry.

If people like him because he's funny, then that's ok, to each their own, he has many reasons to like him. I don't care for the comedy, but I like his character. It kinda reminds me of Saitama. And yes, to me greed is bad, no matter who they are, fake or real.

You could be watching double Storm videos if you stop watching wrestling you don't like.
It's not about "protecting the business." That genie is already WAY out of the bottle and it's never coming back. But that can (and should) be done is to make it easier for fans to lose themselves in it temporarily by doing what every other action and drama series does pretend it's real for the two hours that it's on the air.

And what you are calling greed, the wrestlers would call "feeding their families" or "making a living" or "securing their financial future." You do realize that Bullet Club/The Elite put all of those different t-shirts out to make money off of you, right?

And if that still doesn't work for you, how about pride? The desire to prove that you are the very peak of your field. You liked the Moxley vs. Jericho stuff and the Cody vs. Jericho stuff so much, didn't you? That's exactly what that was about!
Hold #712: ARM BAR!

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