Your 5 star matches

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Big Red Machine
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Re: Your 5 star matches

Post by Big Red Machine » Mar 10th, '20, 17:18

NWK2000 wrote:
Mar 10th, '20, 09:27
Big Red Machine wrote:
Mar 8th, '20, 21:03

They are making a mockery of the business. You said it yourself:
I think you're looking at Orange exclusively on a surface level. And yeah, if you see a guy doing apathetic shin kicks, that is a mockery. But underneath that, when he's provoked, he taps into whatever power allowed him to almost beat PAC in that match. It's one of those three dimensional characters that wrestler tries but oft fails at. I'd like AEW to add to the Orange Cassidy character that explains that switch being flipped. Maybe he was bullied as a kid, and he thought being apathetic was the best way to avoid that stuff, but when he gets thrown around the anger reawakens. It doesn't have to be that, but something that gives Orange a little bit more chaacter. Having him shift between apathetic to a competent wrestler is completely incompetent if gone unexplained.
You talk about this power that comes out of him when he is "provoked," but we've only seen him provoked twice in AEW, and it's been 50/50. He was angry during the match itself after being provoked, but when Pac assaulted him for no damn reason on the go-home show in the angle that set the match up, he didn't give a sh*t a few minutes later.
You've come up with a great story for Orange Cassidy, but it doesn't fit the facts of what we were shown on the TV.
If he had cut a fiery promo on the go-home show and then showed up at the PPV and just started to fight, that would be one thing, but that's not what happened. Or are you really trying to tell me that getting slapped in the face in the confines of a match that you're already booked in his more of a reason to be angry than getting assaulted for no reason?
Giving some backstory would be a bonus in my opinion. I'm perfectly fine with the idea that no one likes to attacked for no reason during an interview or disrespected during a match as a trigger. The problem is that the application of the trigger is inconsistent, and the reason for that inconsistency feels obvious. He responds to provocation by getting series on the PPV but not on Dynamite because PPV is work-rate time and AEW wants snowflakes from Uncle Dave, and that's something that is completely irrelevant to kayfabe.
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Re: Your 5 star matches

Post by NWK2000 » Mar 11th, '20, 08:11

Big Red Machine wrote:
Mar 10th, '20, 17:18

You've come up with a great story for Orange Cassidy, but it doesn't fit the facts of what we were shown on the TV.
If he had cut a fiery promo on the go-home show and then showed up at the PPV and just started to fight, that would be one thing, but that's not what happened.
I agree 100 percent. Orange Cassidy is a character that needs an extremely nuanced, and carefully told story to work. And I think they were on the right track at Revolution, that's why the crowd was so electric during that match. However, as you said, this doesn't change the fact that it came too late.
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Re: Your 5 star matches

Post by cero2k » Mar 11th, '20, 09:15

Big Red Machine wrote:
Mar 10th, '20, 17:05

And if you look and listen other places (a lot of Keller's people, Jason Powell and his people, people like me... and, yes, people more in the Jim Cornette mindset) he's a huge turn-off. You are making this assumption that everyone who dislikes these things "hates AEW because it's AEW" and is thus looking for a reason to complain, and that's just not true. I'm sure it is in some cases, but a lot of these are people who have been putting over pretty much everything Cody, MJF, Jericho, Moxley, Darby, and many others have done. Many of them love Jungle Boy and LuchaSaurus. A lot of them have enjoyed Britt Baker as a heel and Riho's in-ring work. Not everyone who hates Orange Cassidy and that ilk is hating it just to hate AEW.
not everyone, but there is a big majority of it. And for the most part, i'm sure a lot, not everyone, but a lot of those Powell-Cornette fans don't even pay for AEW. If the paying fans are cheering for him and buying his tees, then he's worth every minute he's out there.
Big Red Machine wrote:
Mar 10th, '20, 17:05

It's not about "protecting the business." That genie is already WAY out of the bottle and it's never coming back. But that can (and should) be done is to make it easier for fans to lose themselves in it temporarily by doing what every other action and drama series does pretend it's real for the two hours that it's on the air.

And what you are calling greed, the wrestlers would call "feeding their families" or "making a living" or "securing their financial future." You do realize that Bullet Club/The Elite put all of those different t-shirts out to make money off of you, right?

And if that still doesn't work for you, how about pride? The desire to prove that you are the very peak of your field. You liked the Moxley vs. Jericho stuff and the Cody vs. Jericho stuff so much, didn't you? That's exactly what that was about!
OC is just that, a character that allows people to enjoy a show, have fun, lose themselves in this imaginary place call wrestling. Who is gonna be able to have fun and lose themselves if everything is serious? I don't believe that those looking for 10 second rules and everything making 150% logic and within the rules of reality, those are not looking to lose themselves, they looking to judge.

Yeah, i'm sure billionaires would also call it 'feeding their families' and 'securing their financial future'.
Yeah, and I only bought one and got a t-shirt out of it, it's a fair trade. Exchange of goods is not a result of greed, that's society. A wrestler fighting for money and power, that's 101 Heel.

Sure, pride is ok, but I also don't need everyone to be the same cookie cutter character, with everyone fighting for pride. Why would i care for wrestling if everyone was the same person?

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Re: Your 5 star matches

Post by Big Red Machine » Mar 11th, '20, 19:31

cero2k wrote:
Mar 11th, '20, 09:15
Big Red Machine wrote:
Mar 10th, '20, 17:05

And if you look and listen other places (a lot of Keller's people, Jason Powell and his people, people like me... and, yes, people more in the Jim Cornette mindset) he's a huge turn-off. You are making this assumption that everyone who dislikes these things "hates AEW because it's AEW" and is thus looking for a reason to complain, and that's just not true. I'm sure it is in some cases, but a lot of these are people who have been putting over pretty much everything Cody, MJF, Jericho, Moxley, Darby, and many others have done. Many of them love Jungle Boy and LuchaSaurus. A lot of them have enjoyed Britt Baker as a heel and Riho's in-ring work. Not everyone who hates Orange Cassidy and that ilk is hating it just to hate AEW.
not everyone, but there is a big majority of it. And for the most part, i'm sure a lot, not everyone, but a lot of those Powell-Cornette fans don't even pay for AEW. If the paying fans are cheering for him and buying his tees, then he's worth every minute he's out there.
It's a question of opportunity cost. Could you be making more money if you were giving that time to someone who doesn't turn off a chunk of the potential audience, like Private Party or Shawn Spears or Jimmy Havoc. And the answer (especially in the case of Private Party) seems like it would be yes.
cero2k wrote:
Mar 11th, '20, 09:15
Big Red Machine wrote:
Mar 10th, '20, 17:05

It's not about "protecting the business." That genie is already WAY out of the bottle and it's never coming back. But that can (and should) be done is to make it easier for fans to lose themselves in it temporarily by doing what every other action and drama series does pretend it's real for the two hours that it's on the air.

And what you are calling greed, the wrestlers would call "feeding their families" or "making a living" or "securing their financial future." You do realize that Bullet Club/The Elite put all of those different t-shirts out to make money off of you, right?

And if that still doesn't work for you, how about pride? The desire to prove that you are the very peak of your field. You liked the Moxley vs. Jericho stuff and the Cody vs. Jericho stuff so much, didn't you? That's exactly what that was about!
OC is just that, a character that allows people to enjoy a show, have fun, lose themselves in this imaginary place call wrestling. Who is gonna be able to have fun and lose themselves if everything is serious? I don't believe that those looking for 10 second rules and everything making 150% logic and within the rules of reality, those are not looking to lose themselves, they looking to judge.
Well, for one thing, it's a lot easier to lose yourself and have fun when the show isn't doing things to full you out of it. Imagine going to a basketball game and the referee is letting people get away with traveling on three out of every four plays. Your brain starts asking "what the f*ck is this?" Or imagine going to a movie where something dramatic happens, and then one of the actors breaks character and starts talking do you about how they did this or that special effect, then the just picks up where it left off.
It's easier to lose yourself if everything is serious because if you want to get invested in whatever story the Young Bucks are telling, having one of them say "I'm going to do a spot now!" pulls you out of it by reminding you that it's fake, so why should you care who wins and who loses? Or if you get some heavy heat angle, and the next thing on the show is Orange Cassidy throwing his weak ass kicks and everyone reacting like he's Kawada because they're all "in on the joke," reminding you that what you just saw isn't real and the emotions weren't real.

And there is no way anyone should be complaining about fans who want the ten second rule enforced, and the reason for that is because it's AEW's fault that those fans are looking for it, because AEW told us to be on the lookout for it. AEW could have said "we're going to use Lucha tag rules," and then none of those people would be complaining. Or AEW could have even said that "enforcement of the 'one wrestler from each team in at a time' rule will be left up to the discretion of the referee. You're not going to see a count like you will in other promotions, but if the referee keeps telling the non=legal wrestler to get out of the ring and he or she doesn't, the referee will disqualify that wrestler's team" (like the "no count-outs, but the ref can call for a double DQ if he thinks things are getting too out of hand" rule that ROH and EVOLVE have both used at times). And if AEW just said one of those things tomorrow, those fans would stop complaining that the ten second rule isn't being followed.
But AEW hasn't said that. They keep letting us know that the tens second rule is still a thing because they do enforce it sometimes, which makes the whole thing feel fake all of the other times that they don't because it breaks suspension of disbelief.

cero2k wrote:
Mar 11th, '20, 09:15
Yeah, i'm sure billionaires would also call it 'feeding their families' and 'securing their financial future'.
Yeah, and I only bought one and got a t-shirt out of it, it's a fair trade. Exchange of goods is not a result of greed, that's society. A wrestler fighting for money and power, that's 101 Heel.
You do realize that the billionaires pay the wrestlers to wrestle, right? How is that exchange of services any less greedy than you the wrestler selling you a t-shirt?
And do you not think the Bucks' futures would have been set if they had stopped putting out new t-shirt designs three shirts ago? How is that not greed? They could have just kept producing the same shirts, but they don't because they want someone who has already bought the old shirt to buy one of the new ones now, too.


A wrestler fighting for money is heel 101? Dude... They're all fighting for money. They wouldn't be doing this if there was no money involved. How many great territorial babyface promos were talking about how that heel "tried to take food off of my children's plates" or whatever? Dusty Rhodes bought himself all sorts of nice clothes and rolexes and so forth just like Ric Flair did. The things that make Flair a heel and Dusty a babyface are that Flair cheated to get the money, and that Flair was a dick about what he did with his money and told us all that having that money and being able to buy nicer things made him better than us.
cero2k wrote:
Mar 11th, '20, 09:15

Sure, pride is ok, but I also don't need everyone to be the same cookie cutter character, with everyone fighting for pride. Why would i care for wrestling if everyone was the same person?
Everyone in wrestling is either fighting for money or pride (revenge is a form of pride, as is patriotism/nationalism). Not everyone fighting for pride is the same character. What sets each character apart is her/her journeys and life experiences and how they let that inform their decisions. Tyler Black and Jerry Lynn were both chasing Nigel McGuinness and Austin Aries for the ROH World Title and both were fighting for pride, but they were totally different characters. One was the young babyface trying to prove that he could make it to the top, the other was the aging veteran former world champ trying to prove that he still had what it took to be the world champion. Both Karsten Beck and John Klinger were heel world champions in wXw with a stable behind them. Karsten was just a bully and a jerk who wanted to be the world champion; Klinger was someone who was so desperate for another taste of being the top guy that he sold out to a group of young punks that he would normally oppose in order to become their leader because he thought it would help him become the world champion again. You are confusing character with motivation.

Also, I find that last part rather ironic coming from a big fan of New Japan, which has the most cookie-cutter characters of any major (and even most mid-level) promotions BY FAR. That's a place where everyone just fights for pride. It's only the moves that are different, and you seem to have no problem with it there.
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Re: Your 5 star matches

Post by cero2k » May 24th, '20, 15:44

I loved the Stadium Stampede

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Re: Your 5 star matches

Post by Big Red Machine » May 25th, '20, 09:50

cero2k wrote:
May 24th, '20, 15:44
I loved the Stadium Stampede
HOW? It was just a bunch of goofball sh*t with no story.
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Re: Your 5 star matches

Post by cero2k » May 25th, '20, 13:27

Big Red Machine wrote:
May 25th, '20, 09:50
cero2k wrote:
May 24th, '20, 15:44
I loved the Stadium Stampede
HOW? It was just a bunch of goofball sh*t with no story.
cuz it was fun. It was the big climatic ending fight of a superhero movie. Tons of references to their previous matches, the action itself was really good executed, and while it may not had a story of 'wrestling psychology', there was definitely parts of a story there, from Page being the lone cowboy but then needing his tag team partner and celebrating with the team, to the one-by-one elimination of the TIC parts in order to gain momentum

As for the goofball stuff, i mean, yeah, it was 90% of it, but after seeing Edge v Orton and Ciampa v Gargano, I think goofball made this fun to watch. I can see how it's not everyone's thing, but I thought this match needed it. They'll eventually do their blood and guts match and that'll be more serious

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Re: Your 5 star matches

Post by Big Red Machine » May 25th, '20, 15:13

cero2k wrote:
May 25th, '20, 13:27
Big Red Machine wrote:
May 25th, '20, 09:50
cero2k wrote:
May 24th, '20, 15:44
I loved the Stadium Stampede
HOW? It was just a bunch of goofball sh*t with no story.
cuz it was fun. It was the big climatic ending fight of a superhero movie. Tons of references to their previous matches, the action itself was really good executed, and while it may not had a story of 'wrestling psychology', there was definitely parts of a story there, from Page being the lone cowboy but then needing his tag team partner and celebrating with the team, to the one-by-one elimination of the TIC parts in order to gain momentum

As for the goofball stuff, i mean, yeah, it was 90% of it, but after seeing Edge v Orton and Ciampa v Gargano, I think goofball made this fun to watch. I can see how it's not everyone's thing, but I thought this match needed it. They'll eventually do their blood and guts match and that'll be more serious
I think there is a difference between "fun" and "great storytelling." They're not mutually exclusive, but they're not inherently connected, either, and people seem to have forgotten that over the past few years.

I'll disagree with you about the Page and Omega thing because they already established that Page and Omega were on the same Page. It's the Bucks that it's still not proven that Page is willing to work with for more than a few moments at a time.

I found this match to drag just as much as Ciampa vs. Gargano and Orton vs. Edge (actually, probably less than Orton vs. Edge, but I know I'm in the minority on that match). The cutting from one bit to the next makes it feel like it just keeps going because there is no transition. I realize that this is a consequence of doing a big ten-person brawl like this, but they made the choice to do the match, and that comes with negatives.

The problem with saying "they'll be more serious when they do the blood and guys match" is that you're ignoring the fact that this match is a chapter in the feud, and their attitudes here are completely incongruous with their attitudes at every other point. You don't get to do comedy matches in a blood feud, because why would the wrestlers being doing comedy in a match against people they hate? Asking me to ignore that aspect of this match in the future is no different than WWE just expecting us to forget that someone was on SD before their injury and now that they're healed they're showing up on Raw.
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Re: Your 5 star matches

Post by cero2k » May 25th, '20, 15:48

Big Red Machine wrote:
May 25th, '20, 15:13

I think there is a difference between "fun" and "great storytelling." They're not mutually exclusive, but they're not inherently connected, either, and people seem to have forgotten that over the past few years.

I'll disagree with you about the Page and Omega thing because they already established that Page and Omega were on the same Page. It's the Bucks that it's still not proven that Page is willing to work with for more than a few moments at a time.

I found this match to drag just as much as Ciampa vs. Gargano and Orton vs. Edge (actually, probably less than Orton vs. Edge, but I know I'm in the minority on that match). The cutting from one bit to the next makes it feel like it just keeps going because there is no transition. I realize that this is a consequence of doing a big ten-person brawl like this, but they made the choice to do the match, and that comes with negatives.

The problem with saying "they'll be more serious when they do the blood and guys match" is that you're ignoring the fact that this match is a chapter in the feud, and their attitudes here are completely incongruous with their attitudes at every other point. You don't get to do comedy matches in a blood feud, because why would the wrestlers being doing comedy in a match against people they hate? Asking me to ignore that aspect of this match in the future is no different than WWE just expecting us to forget that someone was on SD before their injury and now that they're healed they're showing up on Raw.
I'm not claiming this to be great storytelling, I found it fun. You don't need perfect storytelling to have fun, and surely perfect storytelling is not fun necessarily.

We know that Page and Omega are in the same page (no pun intended), but Page IS still a lone wolf and he got his ass kicked for roaming around by himself.

I found perfect transition. 4v5, heels dominate, babyface evens out the odds, match breaks up to different groups, heels dominate a bit more, then the babyfaces start to win and defeat the heels one by one.

They're not doing comedy in a blood feud, they're doing things that WE find funny, but they're not 'comedy' in the sense of fighting. Do you think that the Avengers or Deadpool fight with jokes to save the world? We find Hulk's beating of Loki funny, but Hulk is not doing comedy, it's actually quite terrifying how he manhandles him. It's the same here, none of the spots were wrestling comedy really, they come across as funny to us, but they're not in the sense of hurting your opponent physically or psychologically.

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Re: Your 5 star matches

Post by Big Red Machine » May 25th, '20, 16:12

cero2k wrote:
May 25th, '20, 15:48
Big Red Machine wrote:
May 25th, '20, 15:13

I think there is a difference between "fun" and "great storytelling." They're not mutually exclusive, but they're not inherently connected, either, and people seem to have forgotten that over the past few years.

I'll disagree with you about the Page and Omega thing because they already established that Page and Omega were on the same Page. It's the Bucks that it's still not proven that Page is willing to work with for more than a few moments at a time.

I found this match to drag just as much as Ciampa vs. Gargano and Orton vs. Edge (actually, probably less than Orton vs. Edge, but I know I'm in the minority on that match). The cutting from one bit to the next makes it feel like it just keeps going because there is no transition. I realize that this is a consequence of doing a big ten-person brawl like this, but they made the choice to do the match, and that comes with negatives.

The problem with saying "they'll be more serious when they do the blood and guys match" is that you're ignoring the fact that this match is a chapter in the feud, and their attitudes here are completely incongruous with their attitudes at every other point. You don't get to do comedy matches in a blood feud, because why would the wrestlers being doing comedy in a match against people they hate? Asking me to ignore that aspect of this match in the future is no different than WWE just expecting us to forget that someone was on SD before their injury and now that they're healed they're showing up on Raw.
I'm not claiming this to be great storytelling, I found it fun. You don't need perfect storytelling to have fun, and surely perfect storytelling is not fun necessarily.
And I'm saying I think there is a huge difference between a match that is "a lot of fun" and something I'd consider a perfect match.
cero2k wrote:
May 25th, '20, 15:48
We know that Page and Omega are in the same page (no pun intended), but Page IS still a lone wolf and he got his ass kicked for roaming around by himself.
I disagree with this characterization, and here's why:
1. Page often wrestles by himself and doesn't get his ass kicked, and he got his ass kicked here by one guy, not a group. Why his his "roaming off by himself" here any different than any singles match he is in. Also, the others all wound up in one-on-one fights. some of them needed help (Nick Jackson), others didn't (Matt Hardy, Matt Jackson). Why is the lesson different for Page?
cero2k wrote:
May 25th, '20, 15:48
I found perfect transition. 4v5, heels dominate, babyface evens out the odds, match breaks up to different groups, heels dominate a bit more, then the babyfaces start to win and defeat the heels one by one.

This would have worked fine if this was an elimination match, or if falls had to happen in the ring, but it wasn't. Once the babyfaces took a heel out, they should have pinned him to win the match!
cero2k wrote:
May 25th, '20, 15:48
They're not doing comedy in a blood feud, they're doing things that WE find funny, but they're not 'comedy' in the sense of fighting. Do you think that the Avengers or Deadpool fight with jokes to save the world? We find Hulk's beating of Loki funny, but Hulk is not doing comedy, it's actually quite terrifying how he manhandles him. It's the same here, none of the spots were wrestling comedy really, they come across as funny to us, but they're not in the sense of hurting your opponent physically or psychologically.
What you're describing is the type of comedy I enjoy in my wrestling. I'm fine with Sammy Guevara being run over by a golf cart.
This was not that.
The difference here is that when one of the Avegners is in the middle of being drowned, he doesn't start making wisecracks or mugging for the camera. He struggles to get free.
When they've got the villain beaten, they don't start dancing in the middle of a war-zone. Then a police officer doesn't come by and try to arrest them for a non-existent infraction, and they don't attack the police officer.
When they've got Thanos knocked out they don't paint "Thanos sucks" on his face and then walk away, leaving him with the Infinity Gauntlet. They take the weapon away, handcuff the villain, and send him jail.
If Dr. Doom only wounds Reed Richards with a blast that he thinks should have killed him, he doesn't complain to the Grandmaster that the universe is wrong and demand a replay. He just keeps trying to kill him!

- Painting on the face of the unconscious Jericho and walking away instead of pinning him for the win.
- Jericho throwing a challenge flag and demanding instant replay in a sport that doesn't have one, and then the referee going over to a replay booth.
- A referee trying to penalize someone for "unsportsmanlike conduct" in a sport that doesn't have that penalty.
- LAX trying to drown Matt Hardy, and Matt responding my mugging for an underwater camera.
- Jake Hager seeing Adam Page with his back turned, and deciding to sit down next to him at the bar to chat instead of attacking him.

These are the kind of things that bother me, and I'm tired of fans (and particularly AEW and WWE, and before them PWG fans) hearing about complains like this and pretending that they're the same thing as Colt Cabana tickling someone to make them instinctively release a hold and then saying "oh, you just don't like comedy wrestling." There is a HUGE difference between comedy that makes sense in the context of a professional wrestling match, and something that is just a total farce like this stuff is.
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Re: Your 5 star matches

Post by cero2k » May 25th, '20, 16:42

Big Red Machine wrote:
May 25th, '20, 16:12
And I'm saying I think there is a huge difference between a match that is "a lot of fun" and something I'd consider a perfect match.
Sure, but like i said in the other topic, a match that is not fun or entertaining is not a perfect match either. 10/10s don't all have to be comparable to each other, so when we're talking 'perfect match', to me, this was the perfect representation of arena brawl.
Big Red Machine wrote:
May 25th, '20, 16:12
I disagree with this characterization, and here's why:
1. Page often wrestles by himself and doesn't get his ass kicked, and he got his ass kicked here by one guy, not a group. Why his his "roaming off by himself" here any different than any singles match he is in. Also, the others all wound up in one-on-one fights. some of them needed help (Nick Jackson), others didn't (Matt Hardy, Matt Jackson). Why is the lesson different for Page?
We've been sold that Hager is a one-man wrecking ball, so i think we can take it as a slight handicap to go one-on-one against him, so far, it's taken an undefeated World Champion to beat him. I think the lesson is different here because he's the only one that (1) wasn't with the team to begin with, and (2) fell for his vice over his commitment to fight for the team's goal.
Big Red Machine wrote:
May 25th, '20, 16:12
This would have worked fine if this was an elimination match, or if falls had to happen in the ring, but it wasn't. Once the babyfaces took a heel out, they should have pinned him to win the match!
Beating up the team was more important than getting a W. It's a fight, not a title match.

Big Red Machine wrote:
May 25th, '20, 16:12
What you're describing is the type of comedy I enjoy in my wrestling. I'm fine with Sammy Guevara being run over by a golf cart.
This was not that.
The difference here is that when one of the Avegners is in the middle of being drowned, he doesn't start making wisecracks or mugging for the camera. He struggles to get free.

When they've got the villain beaten, they don't start dancing in the middle of a war-zone. Then a police officer doesn't come by and try to arrest them for a non-existent infraction, and they don't attack the police officer.
When they've got Thanos knocked out they don't paint "Thanos sucks" on his face and then walk away, leaving him with the Infinity Gauntlet. They take the weapon away, handcuff the villain, and send him jail.
If Dr. Doom only wounds Reed Richards with a blast that he thinks should have killed him, he doesn't complain to the Grandmaster that the universe is wrong and demand a replay. He just keeps trying to kill him!

- Painting on the face of the unconscious Jericho and walking away instead of pinning him for the win.
- Jericho throwing a challenge flag and demanding instant replay in a sport that doesn't have one, and then the referee going over to a replay booth.
- A referee trying to penalize someone for "unsportsmanlike conduct" in a sport that doesn't have that penalty.
- LAX trying to drown Matt Hardy, and Matt responding my mugging for an underwater camera.
- Jake Hager seeing Adam Page with his back turned, and deciding to sit down next to him at the bar to chat instead of attacking him.

These are the kind of things that bother me, and I'm tired of fans (and particularly AEW and WWE, and before them PWG fans) hearing about complains like this and pretending that they're the same thing as Colt Cabana tickling someone to make them instinctively release a hold and then saying "oh, you just don't like comedy wrestling." There is a HUGE difference between comedy that makes sense in the context of a professional wrestling match, and something that is just a total farce like this stuff is.
The Matt Hardy made sense tho, he was always in control, he couldn't get drowned, he was playing possum and showed us via camera, he winked at us to tell us that he was ok. And we're also talking by a deranged mind that is possessed by Damascus, drowning may not be a threat to him.

Likewise Jericho, he's a delusional egocentric person, he doesn't accept that he failed to pin his opponent and is more transfixed to prove that he was right, than to accept failure and move on.

Hager totally made sense, he's a legit top rated fighter, he doesn't need to be jumping anyone, he probably felt secure enough to not jump Page in this case. Just because he's a heel doesn't mean he needs to be a generic chickenshit heel

Every character in every promotion has different personalities and different goals and different ways to reach those goals. Talking about dissecting stories, this is something that I like to see more than respecting a 'universe', I want to see personalities and those wrestlers respect those personalities.

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Re: Your 5 star matches

Post by Big Red Machine » May 25th, '20, 17:18

cero2k wrote:
May 25th, '20, 16:42
Big Red Machine wrote:
May 25th, '20, 16:12
And I'm saying I think there is a huge difference between a match that is "a lot of fun" and something I'd consider a perfect match.
Sure, but like i said in the other topic, a match that is not fun or entertaining is not a perfect match either. 10/10s don't all have to be comparable to each other, so when we're talking 'perfect match', to me, this was the perfect representation of arena brawl.
I feel like if you're going to use that logic, then you should be giving 10/10 to great squashes, too, or a chicken-sh*t heel getting DQed to keep the title, or a perfect heel trap like Ole Anderson turning on Dusty in the cage in 1982.
cero2k wrote:
May 25th, '20, 16:42
Big Red Machine wrote:
May 25th, '20, 16:12
I disagree with this characterization, and here's why:
1. Page often wrestles by himself and doesn't get his ass kicked, and he got his ass kicked here by one guy, not a group. Why his his "roaming off by himself" here any different than any singles match he is in. Also, the others all wound up in one-on-one fights. some of them needed help (Nick Jackson), others didn't (Matt Hardy, Matt Jackson). Why is the lesson different for Page?
We've been sold that Hager is a one-man wrecking ball, so i think we can take it as a slight handicap to go one-on-one against him, so far, it's taken an undefeated World Champion to beat him. I think the lesson is different here because he's the only one that (1) wasn't with the team to begin with, and (2) fell for his vice over his commitment to fight for the team's goal.
That doesn't make it feel like Page got beaten up because he walked off alone but rather because he just got caught with the wrong guy. Also, Hager really wasn't treated like that during other portions of this match. I also don't buy the whole "Hager is a wrecking ball" thing, as they had him cheat to win far too much for my liking.
cero2k wrote:
May 25th, '20, 16:42
Big Red Machine wrote:
May 25th, '20, 16:12
This would have worked fine if this was an elimination match, or if falls had to happen in the ring, but it wasn't. Once the babyfaces took a heel out, they should have pinned him to win the match!
Beating up the team was more important than getting a W. It's a fight, not a title match.
So why walk away and stop beating them up?
cero2k wrote:
May 25th, '20, 16:42
Big Red Machine wrote:
May 25th, '20, 16:12
What you're describing is the type of comedy I enjoy in my wrestling. I'm fine with Sammy Guevara being run over by a golf cart.
This was not that.
The difference here is that when one of the Avegners is in the middle of being drowned, he doesn't start making wisecracks or mugging for the camera. He struggles to get free.

When they've got the villain beaten, they don't start dancing in the middle of a war-zone. Then a police officer doesn't come by and try to arrest them for a non-existent infraction, and they don't attack the police officer.
When they've got Thanos knocked out they don't paint "Thanos sucks" on his face and then walk away, leaving him with the Infinity Gauntlet. They take the weapon away, handcuff the villain, and send him jail.
If Dr. Doom only wounds Reed Richards with a blast that he thinks should have killed him, he doesn't complain to the Grandmaster that the universe is wrong and demand a replay. He just keeps trying to kill him!

- Painting on the face of the unconscious Jericho and walking away instead of pinning him for the win.
- Jericho throwing a challenge flag and demanding instant replay in a sport that doesn't have one, and then the referee going over to a replay booth.
- A referee trying to penalize someone for "unsportsmanlike conduct" in a sport that doesn't have that penalty.
- LAX trying to drown Matt Hardy, and Matt responding my mugging for an underwater camera.
- Jake Hager seeing Adam Page with his back turned, and deciding to sit down next to him at the bar to chat instead of attacking him.

These are the kind of things that bother me, and I'm tired of fans (and particularly AEW and WWE, and before them PWG fans) hearing about complains like this and pretending that they're the same thing as Colt Cabana tickling someone to make them instinctively release a hold and then saying "oh, you just don't like comedy wrestling." There is a HUGE difference between comedy that makes sense in the context of a professional wrestling match, and something that is just a total farce like this stuff is.
The Matt Hardy made sense tho, he was always in control, he couldn't get drowned, he was playing possum and showed us via camera, he winked at us to tell us that he was ok. And we're also talking by a deranged mind that is possessed by Damascus, drowning may not be a threat to him.
This is a fair point, but then it makes LAX look like idiots for trying to drown him repeatedly.
Also, it'd be nice if they actually established that fact. If this had happened in the Lake of Reincarnation, I would have been fine with it, but for all we knew it happened in a swimming pool. And if the case is that this can happen when you're submerged in any body of water, it's important that they keep to that. But they haven't been. In AEW, they haven't even made the connection between water and changing personas, as the first two times Matt changed (in that brawl a few weeks ago), he wasn't submerged in water. If you're going to have magic, you can't just use it whenever you want to and then ignore it in a similar situation when you don't want to use it like. If you use it as a comedy version of a deus ex machina, that's just as bad as the way WWE treats the rules of it's universe.
cero2k wrote:
May 25th, '20, 16:42
Likewise Jericho, he's a delusional egocentric person, he doesn't accept that he failed to pin his opponent and is more transfixed to prove that he was right, than to accept failure and move on.
That's not what my problem with this is! Jericho argues with referees all the time.
My problem is that Jericho just happened to have carried a challenge flag with him to this brutal fight, and that even though there are no instant replays in pro wrestling, the referee in this case acted as if this was totally legitimate and went to a replay booth to double-check the call!
cero2k wrote:
May 25th, '20, 16:42
Hager totally made sense, he's a legit top rated fighter, he doesn't need to be jumping anyone, he probably felt secure enough to not jump Page in this case. Just because he's a heel doesn't mean he needs to be a generic chickenshit heel
1) You say that "just because he's a heel doesn't mean he needs to be a chickensh*t" and yet AEW has mostly presented him as someone who needs to cheat to win.
2) You're ignoring the fact that he has jumped people from behind in AEW many times before.
3) It's not even a chickensh*t thing to do to attack some from behind once the bell has already rung. Page knows he's supposed to be in a fight right now.
cero2k wrote:
May 25th, '20, 16:42
Every character in every promotion has different personalities and different goals and different ways to reach those goals. Talking about dissecting stories, this is something that I like to see more than respecting a 'universe', I want to see personalities and those wrestlers respect those personalities.
That's great and all, but you're not looking at the whole picture of the characters that has been painted for us. You're grasping at straws. As I said above, while you might be right about Swagger, his actions so far in AEW have rarely been in concert with what you're describing. A Jack Swagger who is that confident in his abilities wouldn't have needed to resort to kicking Dustin Rhodes in the nuts.
When I talk about the universe, the history of the characters is included in that, too.
You say that you like these different personalities and that's fine. My problem is that you seem completely willing to accept those personalities acting in whatever manner the spot at the moment demands, even if it makes no sense with how the character has acted in the past. I bring this back to the Bullet Club Civil War, where you were willing to accept the Bucks forgiving Yujiro and whoever his partner was at the time the moment the match was over for attacking them from behind when Matt had an injured back for the idiotic reason of not 2 Sweeting with them before a match, but weren't willing to forgive Omega, who they are much closer with, for shoving Matt down when it's clear in hindsight he thought Matt was someone else, even two months after the incident.
Part of being a good character is being consistent in your actions, with a logic guiding them that is visible in hindsight. You just grasp at straws to explain these character's actions in this one moment, even if it doesn't make sense with what has come before, and don't admit that you're wrong then they're future actions don't match up.
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Re: Your 5 star matches

Post by cero2k » May 25th, '20, 22:36

Big Red Machine wrote:
May 25th, '20, 17:18
I feel like if you're going to use that logic, then you should be giving 10/10 to great squashes, too, or a chicken-sh*t heel getting DQed to keep the title, or a perfect heel trap like Ole Anderson turning on Dusty in the cage in 1982.
Squashes are different, there's a reason we rate them by 'Squash', like when we do with 'No Rating, Awesome Segment'. It's hard to rate them as a match at all because of their nature, are there perfect squashes? I think we can all agree that those do exist.
Stuff like chickenshit heels and dusty finishes I think they're ok if they're warranted, even some of the annoying TNA/WWE/BulletClub inference spam can make sense and add to the matches too.
Big Red Machine wrote:
May 25th, '20, 17:18
That doesn't make it feel like Page got beaten up because he walked off alone but rather because he just got caught with the wrong guy. Also, Hager really wasn't treated like that during other portions of this match. I also don't buy the whole "Hager is a wrecking ball" thing, as they had him cheat to win far too much for my liking.
valid points, to me he's a wrecking ball, the world champion himself put him over as being incredibly strong. AEW has been pretty good at protecting the strength of their giants (Luchasaurus, Wardlow, Hager, Archer, and probably Cage now)
Big Red Machine wrote:
May 25th, '20, 17:18
So why walk away and stop beating them up?
Because they're done, Santana and Ortiz had no escape, Hager and Jericho would had likely recovered sooner or later, but you cross that bridge when you get there. it paid off to chase after Sammy next and beat him.

Big Red Machine wrote:
May 25th, '20, 17:18
This is a fair point, but then it makes LAX look like idiots for trying to drown him repeatedly.
Also, it'd be nice if they actually established that fact. If this had happened in the Lake of Reincarnation, I would have been fine with it, but for all we knew it happened in a swimming pool. And if the case is that this can happen when you're submerged in any body of water, it's important that they keep to that. But they haven't been. In AEW, they haven't even made the connection between water and changing personas, as the first two times Matt changed (in that brawl a few weeks ago), he wasn't submerged in water. If you're going to have magic, you can't just use it whenever you want to and then ignore it in a similar situation when you don't want to use it like. If you use it as a comedy version of a deus ex machina, that's just as bad as the way WWE treats the rules of it's universe.
When I say he couldn't be drowned is because he can hold his breath for 300+ seconds, LAX's error was to not make sure they had succeeded, again, early celebration. And they did establish that fact, they had a huge screen overlay saying it, and commentary did mention that this was water from the lake or reincarnation too.
Big Red Machine wrote:
May 25th, '20, 17:18
That's not what my problem with this is! Jericho argues with referees all the time.
My problem is that Jericho just happened to have carried a challenge flag with him to this brutal fight, and that even though there are no instant replays in pro wrestling, the referee in this case acted as if this was totally legitimate and went to a replay booth to double-check the call!
Jericho also wore and had his whole team wear football jerseys, this is the type of thing that Jericho would do and have with him. Aubrey didn't act like it was legitimate, she went with Jericho to prove him wrong. Stadium Stampede matches do have instant replay as of the historical data we have.
Big Red Machine wrote:
May 25th, '20, 17:18
That's great and all, but you're not looking at the whole picture of the characters that has been painted for us. You're grasping at straws. As I said above, while you might be right about Swagger, his actions so far in AEW have rarely been in concert with what you're describing. A Jack Swagger who is that confident in his abilities wouldn't have needed to resort to kicking Dustin Rhodes in the nuts.
When I talk about the universe, the history of the characters is included in that, too.
You say that you like these different personalities and that's fine. My problem is that you seem completely willing to accept those personalities acting in whatever manner the spot at the moment demands, even if it makes no sense with how the character has acted in the past. I bring this back to the Bullet Club Civil War, where you were willing to accept the Bucks forgiving Yujiro and whoever his partner was at the time the moment the match was over for attacking them from behind when Matt had an injured back for the idiotic reason of not 2 Sweeting with them before a match, but weren't willing to forgive Omega, who they are much closer with, for shoving Matt down when it's clear in hindsight he thought Matt was someone else, even two months after the incident.
Part of being a good character is being consistent in your actions, with a logic guiding them that is visible in hindsight. You just grasp at straws to explain these character's actions in this one moment, even if it doesn't make sense with what has come before, and don't admit that you're wrong then they're future actions don't match up.
Because that is how humans act. This isn't Batman and Superman and Ryu and Mario that have been doing the same shit for years, they're humans. This is why fans are so polarizing with WWE wrestlers, because it's the "same shit different day" thing.
I'm not grasping for straws, i'm grabbing the whole universe, and infinite universe of possibilities, I wanna see everything that can happen to Hager. What's so good about a character that is always the same thing? how is that appealing? How am I, an ever changing and evolving human, connect to something that is just the same shit over and over again? I don't care if Hager has cheated before, at the moment, he had his reasons, this time he didn't cheat, it's not breaking parallel universes, it's just that it didn't happen, that's all. You, Dozer, Lynas, I, none of us are acting like we did 5 years ago, we're not even acting like we did 5 months ago, why would the wrestlers have to get stuck in a little box with rules?

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Re: Your 5 star matches

Post by Big Red Machine » May 25th, '20, 23:08

cero2k wrote:
May 25th, '20, 22:36
Big Red Machine wrote:
May 25th, '20, 17:18
That doesn't make it feel like Page got beaten up because he walked off alone but rather because he just got caught with the wrong guy. Also, Hager really wasn't treated like that during other portions of this match. I also don't buy the whole "Hager is a wrecking ball" thing, as they had him cheat to win far too much for my liking.
valid points, to me he's a wrecking ball, the world champion himself put him over as being incredibly strong. AEW has been pretty good at protecting the strength of their giants (Luchasaurus, Wardlow, Hager, Archer, and probably Cage now).
There is a difference between protecting someone and actively putting them over, and they haven't done that with Hager because they kept having him cheat. They haven't really done it with Luchasaurus, either, as he hasn't beaten anyone. And Wardlow has lost the only big match he's had. They did a good job with Archer in the build-up to the Cody match... but not Archer has lost his only match, too.
You say they've protected their giants, but I feel like they've done that by being cowardly with them. They keep teasing confrontations with with but never deliver. How many times has someone had a stare-down with Luchasaurus that never went anywhere? It's only one step better from doing a f*ck finish because you don't want to beat someone.
cero2k wrote:
May 25th, '20, 22:36
Big Red Machine wrote:
May 25th, '20, 17:18
So why walk away and stop beating them up?
Because they're done, Santana and Ortiz had no escape, Hager and Jericho would had likely recovered sooner or later, but you cross that bridge when you get there. it paid off to chase after Sammy next and beat him.
So why stop with Sammy, then? Why pin him when you can keep beating him up, or go back to one of the others? It's arbitrary, I know, but the reason this bothered me so much wasn't that they walked away from people but because the ending of all of the bits where they walked away from someone were comedy, which made the whole thing feel scripted. The reason they stopped with Sammy felt less like something organic and more because "that was the planned finish after they did their big spot.
cero2k wrote:
May 25th, '20, 22:36
Big Red Machine wrote:
May 25th, '20, 17:18
This is a fair point, but then it makes LAX look like idiots for trying to drown him repeatedly.
Also, it'd be nice if they actually established that fact. If this had happened in the Lake of Reincarnation, I would have been fine with it, but for all we knew it happened in a swimming pool. And if the case is that this can happen when you're submerged in any body of water, it's important that they keep to that. But they haven't been. In AEW, they haven't even made the connection between water and changing personas, as the first two times Matt changed (in that brawl a few weeks ago), he wasn't submerged in water. If you're going to have magic, you can't just use it whenever you want to and then ignore it in a similar situation when you don't want to use it like. If you use it as a comedy version of a deus ex machina, that's just as bad as the way WWE treats the rules of it's universe.
When I say he couldn't be drowned is because he can hold his breath for 300+ seconds, LAX's error was to not make sure they had succeeded, again, early celebration. And they did establish that fact, they had a huge screen overlay saying it, and commentary did mention that this was water from the lake or reincarnation too.
How did water from the Lake of Reincarnation get to pool in the Jaguars football stadium? The only explanation is that the babyfaces brought it there so that Matt could use it, which, to me, would be using the unfair advantage of their pal Tony giving them access to the stadium before the match to set something up.
cero2k wrote:
May 25th, '20, 22:36
Big Red Machine wrote:
May 25th, '20, 17:18
That's not what my problem with this is! Jericho argues with referees all the time.
My problem is that Jericho just happened to have carried a challenge flag with him to this brutal fight, and that even though there are no instant replays in pro wrestling, the referee in this case acted as if this was totally legitimate and went to a replay booth to double-check the call!
Jericho also wore and had his whole team wear football jerseys, this is the type of thing that Jericho would do and have with him. Aubrey didn't act like it was legitimate, she went with Jericho to prove him wrong. Stadium Stampede matches do have instant replay as of the historical data we have.
Aubrey absolutely did act like this was legitimate, and your claim that she went "with Jericho to prove him wrong" is clearly false, or else she wouldn't have been yelling at him that he wasn't allowed in the replay tent.
And if these matches do actually have instant replay:
1. Why wasn't that special rule announced either during the build or before the match when the other special rules (like falls count anywhere) were announced?
2. Why didn't anyone else use a challenge flag?
3. What's the penalty for getting a challenge wrong? Why weren't the wrestlers demanding that every nearfall be reviewed?
Stop trying to pretend that this was anything more than them making a dumb football joke for the sake of comedy, just like the stupid thing with Matt Jackson and Rick Knox. Are you going to tell me that this match has "unsportsmanlike conduct" penalties, too? What's the penalty for it, then?
cero2k wrote:
May 25th, '20, 22:36
Big Red Machine wrote:
May 25th, '20, 17:18
That's great and all, but you're not looking at the whole picture of the characters that has been painted for us. You're grasping at straws. As I said above, while you might be right about Swagger, his actions so far in AEW have rarely been in concert with what you're describing. A Jack Swagger who is that confident in his abilities wouldn't have needed to resort to kicking Dustin Rhodes in the nuts.
When I talk about the universe, the history of the characters is included in that, too.
You say that you like these different personalities and that's fine. My problem is that you seem completely willing to accept those personalities acting in whatever manner the spot at the moment demands, even if it makes no sense with how the character has acted in the past. I bring this back to the Bullet Club Civil War, where you were willing to accept the Bucks forgiving Yujiro and whoever his partner was at the time the moment the match was over for attacking them from behind when Matt had an injured back for the idiotic reason of not 2 Sweeting with them before a match, but weren't willing to forgive Omega, who they are much closer with, for shoving Matt down when it's clear in hindsight he thought Matt was someone else, even two months after the incident.
Part of being a good character is being consistent in your actions, with a logic guiding them that is visible in hindsight. You just grasp at straws to explain these character's actions in this one moment, even if it doesn't make sense with what has come before, and don't admit that you're wrong then they're future actions don't match up.
Because that is how humans act. This isn't Batman and Superman and Ryu and Mario that have been doing the same shit for years, they're humans. This is why fans are so polarizing with WWE wrestlers, because it's the "same shit different day" thing.
I'm not grasping for straws, i'm grabbing the whole universe, and infinite universe of possibilities, I wanna see everything that can happen to Hager. What's so good about a character that is always the same thing? how is that appealing? How am I, an ever changing and evolving human, connect to something that is just the same shit over and over again? I don't care if Hager has cheated before, at the moment, he had his reasons, this time he didn't cheat, it's not breaking parallel universes, it's just that it didn't happen, that's all. You, Dozer, Lynas, I, none of us are acting like we did 5 years ago, we're not even acting like we did 5 months ago, why would the wrestlers have to get stuck in a little box with rules?
I'm not saying that they have to do the same thing all the time. I'm saying that one needs to be able to draw a line from action to event to action to event to explain why someone acts differently the second time. That's telling a story. Someone acting totally differently when put in the same situation without a precipitating reason for chagning is not human behavior. That's exactly what people hate about heel turns that come out of nowhere because someone just decided to flip the switch in the wrestlers brain from good to evil.
"He has his reasons" is not a very good reason when you're telling a story. If they acknowledge it and explain to us what those reasons were over the course of the next few weeks then I'll gladly admit that your were right. But if they don't explain it, then you need to be willing to admit that it was stupid nonsensical out of character bullsh*t that they did just for a laugh.

And please remember that three months ago in this same thread we were debating Orange Cassidy and you and NWK were saying that the match with Pac was going to be the beginning of a story about OC starting to try more... and here we are at the next PPV and the story is "Orange Cassidy is too lazy to climb a ladder."
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Re: Your 5 star matches

Post by Big Red Machine » May 27th, '20, 22:27

I thought Riddle's selling could have been a bit better so I only gave it 9.75/10, but absolutely everyone should go watch the "Fight Pit" from this week's NXT. It was absolutely amazing.
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Re: Your 5 star matches

Post by Serujuunin » Jun 16th, '20, 12:10

I really really liked Edge and Orton from Backlash. I haven’t yet decided if it was really 5 stars but it was damn close in my opinion.

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Re: Your 5 star matches

Post by Big Red Machine » Jun 16th, '20, 12:54

Serujuunin wrote:
Jun 16th, '20, 12:10
I really really liked Edge and Orton from Backlash. I haven’t yet decided if it was really 5 stars but it was damn close in my opinion.
I lot of people seemed to have liked this a lot more than me. I'm expecting to see a lot of ratings in the ****1/2-****3/4 range.

I think that coming after the terrible marathon that was the Viking Raiders vs. Street Profits abomination negatively affected it my experience of it.
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Re: Your 5 star matches

Post by KILLdozer » Jun 16th, '20, 13:07

5 stars? Nawh...that's the "GOT DANG DID YOU SEE THAT CAN'T BELIEVE HOW INSANE AND OFF THE CHARTS THAT SHIT WAS!", "greatest match ever."

Don't even bother. Don't try. It's 25 stars. You can't rank something like that.
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Re: Your 5 star matches

Post by Serujuunin » Jun 16th, '20, 22:36

Big Red Machine wrote:
Jun 16th, '20, 12:54
Serujuunin wrote:
Jun 16th, '20, 12:10
I really really liked Edge and Orton from Backlash. I haven’t yet decided if it was really 5 stars but it was damn close in my opinion.
I lot of people seemed to have liked this a lot more than me. I'm expecting to see a lot of ratings in the ****1/2-****3/4 range.

I think that coming after the terrible marathon that was the Viking Raiders vs. Street Profits abomination negatively affected it my experience of it.
That is a distinct possibility. I went in with really low expectations to be fair, because of their labeling it the “greatest wrestling match ever”. It kinda set me up to expect that they were gonna try to do a lot of stuff they wouldn’t normally do and it was gonna be forced and weird. I think I liked it more than I otherwise would have because I went in with expectations so low lol. And anything following that garbage would have been a relief to me haha

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Re: Your 5 star matches

Post by Big Red Machine » Jul 11th, '20, 23:17

Bryan Danielson vs. Munenori Sawa from the main event of Evolve 5
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