ROH Honor Rising Night 1: Roderick vs Ishii

[cero2k]

source: http://411mania.com/wrestling/roh-honor ... s-2-19-16/

– Here are the results from today’s ROH Honor Rising event…

* Jushin Liger & Matt Sydal defeated Dalton Castle & Ryusuke Taguchi @ 8:20 via pin
* Delirious defeated Gedo @ 7:53 via pin
* KUSHIDA defeated kazarian @ 9:47 via submission
* Michael Elgin, Moose, Hiroshi Tanahashi & Tomoaki Honma defeated Bad Luck Fale, Tama Tonga, Yujiro Takahashi & Cody Hall @ 11:38 via pin
* Kenny Omega, Matt & Nick Jackson defeated Kyle O’Reilly, Bobby Fish & Katsuyori Shibata @ 10:16 via pin
* Jay & Mark Briscoe defeated Karl Anderson & Doc Gallows @ 8:23 via pin
* Jay Lethal & Tetsuya Naito defeated Kazuchika Okada & YOSHI-HASHI @ 12:56 via pin
* Tomohiro Ishii defeated ROH TV Champion Roderick Strong @ 20:07 to become the NEW ROH TV Champion!

[Big Red Machine]

Well... that's a a stupid, pointless, and completely counter-productive title change.

[cero2k]

Well... that's a a stupid, pointless, and completely counter-productive title change.

how come?

[Big Red Machine]

Well... that's a a stupid, pointless, and completely counter-productive title change.

how come?

Because Ishii won't be a regular and they've already spent so much time building up Roddy vs. Fish that this just gets in the way of that. Ishii's reign will not possibly last past the 2/27 tapings (he can't be in Philly because of the New Japan Cup, and he can't be in Dallas because of Invasion Attack), which means he will have a grand total of AT MOST ONE successful title defense, and ZERO stories. At that point all you have done is cheapened the title with a pointless title reign.

[cero2k]

he could just start defending it on NJPW, that keeps him from the NEVER title for a while, which he needed

[Big Red Machine]

he could just start defending it on NJPW, that keeps him from the NEVER title for a while, which he needed

1. How does that help ROH in any way at all?
2. It's the ROH TV Title. Why would they put it on a guy who won't be able to make 90% of the TV tapings?
3. Is that really worth killing the Fish vs. Roddy program?
4. New Japan doesn't need any more f*cking titles on their shows! They've already got SEVEN, and if they wanted more, they could just pull in a guy from NOAH or ask ROH or CMLL to send a champion over occasionally.
5. The most productive way to keep Ishii from the NEVER Title (loathe as I am to admit it) is to put him in the IWGP Heavyweight Title picture.

[cero2k]

he could just start defending it on NJPW, that keeps him from the NEVER title for a while, which he needed

1. How does that help ROH in any way at all?
2. It's the ROH TV Title. Why would they put it on a guy who won't be able to make 90% of the TV tapings?
3. Is that really worth killing the Fish vs. Roddy program?
4. New Japan doesn't need any more f*cking titles on their shows! They've already got SEVEN, and if they wanted more, they could just pull in a guy from NOAH or ask ROH or CMLL to send a champion over occasionally.
5. The most productive way to keep Ishii from the NEVER Title (loathe as I am to admit it) is to put him in the IWGP Heavyweight Title picture.

1. You can claim that your title is being defended in Japan and you get foreign names on that history. It may not help ROH much, but it also doesn't hurt it.
2. One of the many reasons why i think a title called TV is stupid, but it's not like you can't report on it
3. We don't know how they will follow up, and if because of this we get Fish vs Ishii, then yes 100% worth it
4. This is like the NWA title that Liger sometimes had, it doesn't need to be defended nor be the focus of a program, he'll just defend it on big shows.
5. most productive way, yes. but it's not the only productive way

[Big Red Machine]

he could just start defending it on NJPW, that keeps him from the NEVER title for a while, which he needed

1. How does that help ROH in any way at all?
2. It's the ROH TV Title. Why would they put it on a guy who won't be able to make 90% of the TV tapings?
3. Is that really worth killing the Fish vs. Roddy program?
4. New Japan doesn't need any more f*cking titles on their shows! They've already got SEVEN, and if they wanted more, they could just pull in a guy from NOAH or ask ROH or CMLL to send a champion over occasionally.
5. The most productive way to keep Ishii from the NEVER Title (loathe as I am to admit it) is to put him in the IWGP Heavyweight Title picture.

1. You can claim that your title is being defended in Japan and you get foreign names on that history. It may not help ROH much, but it also doesn't hurt it.
2. One of the many reasons why i think a title called TV is stupid, but it's not like you can't report on it
3. We don't know how they will follow up, and if because of this we get Fish vs Ishii, then yes 100% worth it
4. This is like the NWA title that Liger sometimes had, it doesn't need to be defended nor be the focus of a program, he'll just defend it on big shows.
5. most productive way, yes. but it's not the only productive way

1. I think that concept is relatively overvalued in this day and age when we know that "world" title status is often completely arbitrary. I think having the belt defended internationally means more than having a foreign champion or a title change in a foreign country. Also, even if it does help, it doesn't help enough to counteract #3.
2. I agree that the TV Title name is stupid, but they've chosen the name and gimmick and now they're stuck with it.
3. How the hell is Ishii vs. Fish with almost no build (and when New Japan doesn't like Heavyweights losing to Junior Heavyweights) more compelling than Fish vs. Roddy with the build they have done so far? And if you want to do Ishii vs. Fish so bad, you could just book that match anyway on the 2/27 tapings, when Fish has already cleanly lost to Roddy is on his way back down the card.
4. Except that NWA World Jr. Heavyweight Title is a relic of the past that means more in Japan than it does in the US because the NWA name still kinda-sorta means something over there (hence why they're paring with the pathetically small Bruce Tharpe Houston territory instead of a bigger-name indy). The ROH TV Title is a belt they have spent years building up as something extremely important and which should be the focus of storylines in ROH, not something occasionally defended to fill out a card in New Japan.
5. Actually, I think it is the only productive way. Only the IC or IWGP Heavyweight belts would be seen as a step up for him, and he can't go losing to Omega right now so the IC belt is out of the question. Meanwhile, with Shibata as NEVER Champ, Makabe as a tag champ, Nakamura gone, Ibushi injured, Suzuki in NOAH, and Tanahashi and Goto already vanquished, Ishii is BY FAR the best possible challenger for Okada right now. I say give him the New Japan Cup and have him challenge Okada at Invasion Attack.

[Big Red Machine]

I hope the Briscoes-Bullet Club match time is a typo. Those two teams only getting eight and a half in their final match would be a travesty.

[cero2k]

1. I think that concept is relatively overvalued in this day and age when we know that "world" title status is often completely arbitrary. I think having the belt defended internationally means more than having a foreign champion or a title change in a foreign country. Also, even if it does help, it doesn't help enough to counteract #3.
2. I agree that the TV Title name is stupid, but they've chosen the name and gimmick and now they're stuck with it.
3. How the hell is Ishii vs. Fish with almost no build (and when New Japan doesn't like Heavyweights losing to Junior Heavyweights) more compelling than Fish vs. Roddy with the build they have done so far? And if you want to do Ishii vs. Fish so bad, you could just book that match anyway on the 2/27 tapings, when Fish has already cleanly lost to Roddy is on his way back down the card.
4. Except that NWA World Jr. Heavyweight Title is a relic of the past that means more in Japan than it does in the US because the NWA name still kinda-sorta means something over there (hence why they're paring with the pathetically small Bruce Tharpe Houston territory instead of a bigger-name indy). The ROH TV Title is a belt they have spent years building up as something extremely important and which should be the focus of storylines in ROH, not something occasionally defended to fill out a card in New Japan.
5. Actually, I think it is the only productive way. Only the IC or IWGP Heavyweight belts would be seen as a step up for him, and he can't go losing to Omega right now so the IC belt is out of the question. Meanwhile, with Shibata as NEVER Champ, Makabe as a tag champ, Nakamura gone, Ibushi injured, Suzuki in NOAH, and Tanahashi and Goto already vanquished, Ishii is BY FAR the best possible challenger for Okada right now. I say give him the New Japan Cup and have him challenge Okada at Invasion Attack.

1. It's not about being a world title but more about making news and buzz that a japanese guy won this US title and is taking it to another promotion, and this is my answer to #5 too. Ishii could really help elevate this title in the coming months until WOTWs and GWs, if he treats the belt with prestige as he would with the NEVER or IC, then Ishii doesn't seem like going down a notch but the TV title may mean a bit more

3. It all depends on how they want to sell it. If Fish vs Roddy was about the title, then the logical thing for Fish is to chase Ishii, as well as Roddy should chase Ishii. If Fish vs Roddy was personal, then Ishii can do his thing while Roddy vs Fish keeps going in the US. I don't expect Fish to defeat Ishii, but he could be the perfect first contender. Maybe Goto defeats Ishii for the title at the Anniversary show, i don't know. I don't think NJPW would be really opposed to start using reDragon in the lower heavyweight division, I think O'Reilly vs Sakuraba or O'Reilly vs Shibata is something that NJPW would like to see play out, so Fish could do someone like Ishii or Honma.

4. and ROH is a name that NJPW fans have been hearing more and more, the title will mean something. You're talking like if the title will stay in NJPW for a long time, but it will surely be back by GW and WOTW. For all we know Ishii could come over and do some tapins, he'll be here for the anniversary show, they could tape a bunch of follow up there too and have it on US tv

[Big Red Machine]

1. I think that concept is relatively overvalued in this day and age when we know that "world" title status is often completely arbitrary. I think having the belt defended internationally means more than having a foreign champion or a title change in a foreign country. Also, even if it does help, it doesn't help enough to counteract #3.
2. I agree that the TV Title name is stupid, but they've chosen the name and gimmick and now they're stuck with it.
3. How the hell is Ishii vs. Fish with almost no build (and when New Japan doesn't like Heavyweights losing to Junior Heavyweights) more compelling than Fish vs. Roddy with the build they have done so far? And if you want to do Ishii vs. Fish so bad, you could just book that match anyway on the 2/27 tapings, when Fish has already cleanly lost to Roddy is on his way back down the card.
4. Except that NWA World Jr. Heavyweight Title is a relic of the past that means more in Japan than it does in the US because the NWA name still kinda-sorta means something over there (hence why they're paring with the pathetically small Bruce Tharpe Houston territory instead of a bigger-name indy). The ROH TV Title is a belt they have spent years building up as something extremely important and which should be the focus of storylines in ROH, not something occasionally defended to fill out a card in New Japan.
5. Actually, I think it is the only productive way. Only the IC or IWGP Heavyweight belts would be seen as a step up for him, and he can't go losing to Omega right now so the IC belt is out of the question. Meanwhile, with Shibata as NEVER Champ, Makabe as a tag champ, Nakamura gone, Ibushi injured, Suzuki in NOAH, and Tanahashi and Goto already vanquished, Ishii is BY FAR the best possible challenger for Okada right now. I say give him the New Japan Cup and have him challenge Okada at Invasion Attack.

1. It's not about being a world title but more about making news and buzz that a japanese guy won this US title and is taking it to another promotion, and this is my answer to #5 too. Ishii could really help elevate this title in the coming months until WOTWs and GWs, if he treats the belt with prestige as he would with the NEVER or IC, then Ishii doesn't seem like going down a notch but the TV title may mean a bit more

3. It all depends on how they want to sell it. If Fish vs Roddy was about the title, then the logical thing for Fish is to chase Ishii, as well as Roddy should chase Ishii. If Fish vs Roddy was personal, then Ishii can do his thing while Roddy vs Fish keeps going in the US. I don't expect Fish to defeat Ishii, but he could be the perfect first contender. Maybe Goto defeats Ishii for the title at the Anniversary show, i don't know. I don't think NJPW would be really opposed to start using reDragon in the lower heavyweight division, I think O'Reilly vs Sakuraba or O'Reilly vs Shibata is something that NJPW would like to see play out, so Fish could do someone like Ishii or Honma.

4. and ROH is a name that NJPW fans have been hearing more and more, the title will mean something. You're talking like if the title will stay in NJPW for a long time, but it will surely be back by GW and WOTW. For all we know Ishii could come over and do some tapins, he'll be here for the anniversary show, they could tape a bunch of follow up there too and have it on US tv

1 (& 5). I think you're greatly overestimating the amount of useful buzz that a guy from another promotion holding the title will get. I highly doubt that there is anyone (outside of Japan) who follows New Japan who doesn't already follow ROH (or at least knows enough about it that they have made an educated decision not to follow it for whatever they're reasons might be). You're not making any new fans this way.
Furthermore- and perhaps most importantly- when has social media buzz every actually translated to drawing money?
As I said above, I don't think Ishii holding and defending the belt- either in the US or in Japan- will add to the prestige of the title. A real feud over it between Roddy and Fish, on the other hand, could help add to the prestige of the title.

3. Except that the build to Roddy vs. Fish has all been that Fish SHOULD be the champion because he DID beat Roddy... the referee just missed it because Roddy was being underhanded. The build is both about the title and also inherently "personal" in that Fish's claim to the title is that he clearly had Roddy beaten- no one else.
And quickly switching the belt to Goto right after this random switch to Ishii would be even worse. The belt would become a hot potato. At that point what is the point of having put the title on Ishii in the first place if your end goal was to put it on Goto. Roddy vs. Goto on your big PPV is a million times more fresh and exciting than Ishii vs. Goto.

4. The whole point of ROH coming to Japan was to make their name bigger over there. That was also the whole point of doing (read as: wasting) the Elgin vs. Lethal Title match at the Dome, and probably the whole point of these useless NEVER Six Man Tag Team Titles. They shouldn't need to leave a title behind to help- and especially not in the middle of a big program.
And even if it did help raise ROH's name in Japan... WHO CARES?! For the few times ROH goes to Japan, they will already have New Japan co-promoting the show. Both of these shows sold out. New Japan has a big streaming service for which they get exposure by sending their guys to ROH, just like they do by sending guys to Rev Pro and CMLL. ROH doesn't have anything similar that they are getting by raising their name in Japan.