2 Cents: WWE Performance Center

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Bob-O
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2 Cents: WWE Performance Center

Post by Bob-O » Jan 19th, '20, 13:03

Dozer got me thinking over in BRM's NXT Review. Let's talk about WWE's Performance Center.

$2,300,000.00 initial investment
26,000 sq feet
7 rings
State of the art recording and editing studio
Rehabilitation/training facility
Full time training staff that includes Sara Del Ray, Mike Quackenbush, Adam Pierce...

Let that sink in for a moment...

Does anyone else see the problem here? Billed as a "Wrestling School" first and foremost, in seven years they haven't really ~done~ anything! Taking guys who spent the majority of their careers outside of WWE out of the equation, WHO has come out of this "school"? Who's the feather for their cap? Roman wasn't a PC product... Juice wasn't a PC product... 2.3 million dollars plus seven years of running costs later, I'm coming up with Alexa Bliss. Honorable mention to The Revival, but they can't wait to leave the company... so maybe not a good pick for "Poster Child".

Seriously... am I missing somebody?

We complain about WWE's bottomless wallet, talent raids, and ruthless business mentality; but I feel like the waste The PC's potential is overlooked. There is absolutely no reason that this facility, by now, isn't considered the Harvard of Wrestling School's but they have ZERO notable alumni. Surely by now, seven years later with this facility, the budget to scout, sign, and relocate almost any athlete in the world and train them how to wrestle, along with the pressure of investment and running costs, you'd think they could throw a World Champion on their alma mater... or an IC/US Champion... somebody to justify it all. Somebody they can point at and say, "Look what we did!". A PC Product has yet to win singles gold on even NXT... the "brand" originally dedicated to showcasing these trainees.

OK... so surely one of the hundreds of people that trained there but didn't get signed beyond a developmental deal have gone on to do SOMETHING someplace else, right...? I'm drawing a blank here too.

Maybe I'm being unrealistic, maybe seven years isn't enough time to get somebody to serviceable "main roster" status, but OVW never seemed to have a problem churning out future world champs from the ground up in Orton, Batista, and Lesnar... one could also see night/day differences in guys like Cena who didn't start out there but absolutely left there ready for the spotlight of WWE.

The PC has produced Mojo Rawley and No Way Jose.

This waste of potential is as criminal to me as the talent raids that allow it. LITERALLY no excuse for why they aren't churning out the best wrestlers in the world right now.
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Re: 2 Cents: WWE Performance Center

Post by cero2k » Jan 19th, '20, 13:24

You got it backwards Bob, the PC is not a wrestling school, it's a re-education center. this school HAS produced WWE Superstars, because the well trained wrestlers of the world need to go to the PC and learn the WWE style, lose their quality, and become Sports Entertainers. What would Cedric Alexander or Ricochet be if they kept working like indie guys? God forgive they don't get their entrances down and pose on the wrong turnbuckle!

i've been saying it for years, NXT exists for the sole reason that they buy 'hottest free agents' . They wouldn't even survive with lesser known names of the indies.
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Big Red Machine
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Re: 2 Cents: WWE Performance Center

Post by Big Red Machine » Jan 19th, '20, 13:54

Purely PC products who have been pushed acts on either NXT or the main roster at one point or another:
Bianca Belair
Alexa Bliss!
Lars Sullivan
Authors of Pain
Braun Strowman
Chad Gable
Nia Jax

And that list doesn't include people who have become serviceable midcard characters like Mandy Rose or Heavy Machinery(and Carmella, who has also been the women's champion).
Also, there is Arturo Ruas, who hasn't been pushed outside of EVOLVE yet, but is f*cking fantastic.

And while making those lists, I tried to be restrictive, not including people who got some training before the PC opened up, but who still spent a significant amount of time there (Charlotte Flair, Baron Corbin)


But what you're really overlooking are the following:
1. A lot of people they sign already know how to wrestle, but get better at the PC (Montez Ford, Velveteen Dream, arguably Enzo, and probably more I'm forgetting).
2. People who were already wrestlers but found their gimmick due to NXT/the PC (Street Profits, Velveteen Dream, Enzo, Bayley, Revival, Tye Dillinger, and probably more)
3. People who became much better promos through the PC (Ciampa, plus many of the above... and that's without me including people who probably developed their promo skills at the PC but didn't get a real chance to show them until the main roster, like Buddy Murphy and Elias).
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Re: 2 Cents: WWE Performance Center

Post by Big Red Machine » Jan 19th, '20, 14:01

cero2k wrote:
Jan 19th, '20, 13:24

They wouldn't even survive with lesser known names of the indies.
Except that without people they can use to draw, they wouldn't run the schedule they do. They'd just run the Florida loop and not care if they lose money because it's an investment in the talent and thus it's okay to lose money on the shows.
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Re: 2 Cents: WWE Performance Center

Post by Bob-O » Jan 19th, '20, 16:07

cero2k wrote:
Jan 19th, '20, 13:24
You got it backwards Bob, the PC is not a wrestling school, it's a re-education center. this school HAS produced WWE Superstars, because the well trained wrestlers of the world need to go to the PC and learn the WWE style, lose their quality, and become Sports Entertainers. What would Cedric Alexander or Ricochet be if they kept working like indie guys? God forgive they don't get their entrances down and pose on the wrong turnbuckle!
That's absolutely what it's become, another ruler in Vince McMahon's dick measuring obsession.

I try to keep an open mind, WWE ISN'T the same thing as a lot of these guys were trained to do and have done for years. It's a different demon. Like a mechanic. I'm sure a NASCAR team has far better luck hiring a mechanic out of local garage than finding a guy that likes NASCAR and attempting to show him how the cars work THEN how to fix them. I'm not going to pretend the guy that's really good at fixing my Kia could jump on to a NASCAR pit crew next week. I don't want him to! He's "my guy".

But where this falls off is WWE calling it a "school". Bringing in students, like a school. But nobody graduates unless you transfer in from a different school. From where I sit, it looks like they don't know wtf they're doing...
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jan 19th, '20, 13:54
Purely PC products who have been pushed acts on either NXT or the main roster at one point or another:
Bianca Belair
Alexa Bliss!
Lars Sullivan
Authors of Pain
Braun Strowman
Chad Gable
Nia Jax
Nia Jax shouldn't be on any lists trying to illustrate success in training.

I admittedly forgot all about Strowman. Even without a singles title, it's safe to say he's the PC Product that's gone the furthest. But it's also his LACK of training that's held him back from them pulling the trigger. While EXACTLY what I'm looking for from The PC in this - a main event talent - still not somebody I'd be bragging about if I'm The PC.

I appreciate the Cup Half Full mentality, and the list because you rattled off some names I hadn't thought of - and they've come a little closer than I thought they had, but seven years later we've got Alexa Bliss... we've got Braun... and a whole bunch of dudes that nobody is going to remember in 10 years.
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jan 19th, '20, 14:01
cero2k wrote:
Jan 19th, '20, 13:24

They wouldn't even survive with lesser known names of the indies.
Except that without people they can use to draw, they wouldn't run the schedule they do. They'd just run the Florida loop and not care if they lose money because it's an investment in the talent and thus it's okay to lose money on the shows.
They'd be FCW.
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Re: 2 Cents: WWE Performance Center

Post by Serujuunin » Jan 19th, '20, 20:20

Big Red Machine wrote:
Jan 19th, '20, 13:54
Purely PC products who have been pushed acts on either NXT or the main roster at one point or another:
Bianca Belair
Alexa Bliss!
Lars Sullivan
Authors of Pain
Braun Strowman
Chad Gable
Nia Jax

And that list doesn't include people who have become serviceable midcard characters like Mandy Rose or Heavy Machinery(and Carmella, who has also been the women's champion).
Also, there is Arturo Ruas, who hasn't been pushed outside of EVOLVE yet, but is f*cking fantastic.

And while making those lists, I tried to be restrictive, not including people who got some training before the PC opened up, but who still spent a significant amount of time there (Charlotte Flair, Baron Corbin)


But what you're really overlooking are the following:
1. A lot of people they sign already know how to wrestle, but get better at the PC (Montez Ford, Velveteen Dream, arguably Enzo, and probably more I'm forgetting).
2. People who were already wrestlers but found their gimmick due to NXT/the PC (Street Profits, Velveteen Dream, Enzo, Bayley, Revival, Tye Dillinger, and probably more)
3. People who became much better promos through the PC (Ciampa, plus many of the above... and that's without me including people who probably developed their promo skills at the PC but didn't get a real chance to show them until the main roster, like Buddy Murphy and Elias).
You beat me to it, Red. I agree with all of this.

The best analogy I can think of is like a school system. It's not really a primary school, where people go in with little to no idea of what's going on. I would argue it's not even really like a secondary school for a lot of people, reinforcing the concepts taught in primary school and tying them together into larger concepts. To me, the PC is like a university. People go in with some understanding of the system, what is expected of them, and having enrolled in a program that they've chosen, are emotionally invested, and not necessarily going in blind. It just makes people better.

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Re: 2 Cents: WWE Performance Center

Post by Big Red Machine » Jan 20th, '20, 09:00

Bob-O wrote:
Jan 19th, '20, 16:07


But where this falls off is WWE calling it a "school". Bringing in students, like a school. But nobody graduates unless you transfer in from a different school. From where I sit, it looks like they don't know wtf they're doing...
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jan 19th, '20, 13:54
Purely PC products who have been pushed acts on either NXT or the main roster at one point or another:
Bianca Belair
Alexa Bliss!
Lars Sullivan
Authors of Pain
Braun Strowman
Chad Gable
Nia Jax
Nia Jax shouldn't be on any lists trying to illustrate success in training.

I admittedly forgot all about Strowman. Even without a singles title, it's safe to say he's the PC Product that's gone the furthest. But it's also his LACK of training that's held him back from them pulling the trigger. While EXACTLY what I'm looking for from The PC in this - a main event talent - still not somebody I'd be bragging about if I'm The PC.

I appreciate the Cup Half Full mentality, and the list because you rattled off some names I hadn't thought of - and they've come a little closer than I thought they had, but seven years later we've got Alexa Bliss... we've got Braun... and a whole bunch of dudes that nobody is going to remember in 10 years.

Re Nia: You didn't ask about training. You asked about people who came through the PC and got some sort of push on the main roster.

It's a cause and effect thing. The reason the home-grown guys don't get much of a chance is because they sign all of these indy darlings. There is only so much TV time to go around, both on the main roster and in NXT. The result at the moment is no one who is home-grown getting pushed on the main roster without a look Vince adores (Braun, Otis, AoP,Lars, hot blondes).
And it's not a lack of training that has held Braun back. It's Vince not wanting him to have to lose... and if the plan is for someone else to be the world champion, then Braun either can't have a title shot or he has to lose, so Vince has opted for the former.
I also don't think it's fair to blame the PC for failures that are clearly due to Vince's proclivities once people get to the main roster. You can't tell me that Chad Gable is a bad wrestler. He's not. He's f*cking great. And he is purely a product of the performance Center. You can argue that the PC becomes a waste of money because of the way call-ups who have been trained in house are squandered on the main roster, but for every Chad Gable, there is also an Apollo Crews or Cesaro or Sarah Logan- a talented indy name who gets to the main roster and Vince doesn't do sh*t with the for some stupid reason or another.
The problem is not the PC. The problem is Vince.
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Re: 2 Cents: WWE Performance Center

Post by Thelone » Jan 20th, '20, 11:12

cero2k wrote:
Jan 19th, '20, 13:24
i've been saying it for years, NXT exists for the sole reason that they buy 'hottest free agents' . They wouldn't even survive with lesser known names of the indies.
The thing is, they got noticed in the first place when they had a lot less indy stars. The issue really is that NXT didn't find the balance to grow without outgrowing its original purpose. Like, a training facility isn't supposed to be a money maker anyway (not directly at least), but it's one thing to pay a few big indy names with a bunch of lower level guys/girls and random failed football players/bodybuilders/fitness models/whatever else (NXT before R-Evolution), it's another to pay dozens of indy/international names (most of them barely on TV), very few lower level wrestlers, and even more randoms that'll never be on NXT TV anyway (or bypass it completely because Vince's fetishes).

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Re: 2 Cents: WWE Performance Center

Post by cero2k » Jan 20th, '20, 14:23

Big Red Machine wrote:
Jan 19th, '20, 14:01
cero2k wrote:
Jan 19th, '20, 13:24

They wouldn't even survive with lesser known names of the indies.
Except that without people they can use to draw, they wouldn't run the schedule they do. They'd just run the Florida loop and not care if they lose money because it's an investment in the talent and thus it's okay to lose money on the shows.
Thelone wrote:
Jan 20th, '20, 11:12
cero2k wrote:
Jan 19th, '20, 13:24
i've been saying it for years, NXT exists for the sole reason that they buy 'hottest free agents' . They wouldn't even survive with lesser known names of the indies.
The thing is, they got noticed in the first place when they had a lot less indy stars. The issue really is that NXT didn't find the balance to grow without outgrowing its original purpose. Like, a training facility isn't supposed to be a money maker anyway (not directly at least), but it's one thing to pay a few big indy names with a bunch of lower level guys/girls and random failed football players/bodybuilders/fitness models/whatever else (NXT before R-Evolution), it's another to pay dozens of indy/international names (most of them barely on TV), very few lower level wrestlers, and even more randoms that'll never be on NXT TV anyway (or bypass it completely because Vince's fetishes).
Exactly, NXT, the show is sustainable with the hired indie darlings, and even then, it barely started 'making money' when they moved to the US network. If it still had the FCW format with signings being modified and kept as no big deal, it would had been kept as that secret gem that fans had with FCW.
They got noticed at first because everything in WWE gets noticed when they tells us about it, but how long would that attention stay strong if not for when they hired the "NXT 5" and the consequent big hire every Takeover. Hires seemed to become scheduled, not opportunistic.

Anyway, the reason I brought up NXT was because they SHOULD be the first line of defense where we see how good the Performance Center is. I agree that not all failures shouldn't really fall on the fault of the PC (coughcoughMissConcussionRock'sCousincoughcough), but i'm not so sure we can give props to it for the successes either. Being 'pushed' doesn't equal being ready, being good, and in the same vein, lacking those things doesn't mean that a big dude is not going to get over turning a truck over or that a pretty face that can talk won't get over. The PC didn't teach Bliss how to have charisma, or Braun how to be big and destructive, and let's be real, Chad Gable or Ronda are an Olympic wrestlers, they just had to teach them how to work a fake match. they picking it up as quickly as Angle did shows that having basic training of a martial art matters A LOT. No one home grown reaches the level of the Indie darling turned NXT jobbers. Trevor Lee is still better than Roman Reigns inside the ring.

As a school or rehab center, I think the PC is terrible. I mean, no one in your list holds a candle to Yuya Uemura or Karl Fredericks when it comes to in-ring wrestling. Like it's been said before, why do they have guys like Ricochet or Cedric do drills when either could be teaching the class? Why do they train everyone the same when Braun's training should be different than Enzo Amore's?

The PC is a fantastic Gym, a great library of resources, an awesome AV Club, a complete fashion wardrobe, a good place to figure out gimmicks and talk to old people, but it'll never beat a NJ Dojo, a Storm Wrestling Academy, or a Wrestle Factory to give a few, when it comes to training a person from the bottom-up to become a 'pro wrestler'. Like I said, they're in the business of creating 'superstars', not pro wrestlers. As simple as seeing that the PC has an 'entrance ramp' of all things.
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Re: 2 Cents: WWE Performance Center

Post by Big Red Machine » Jan 20th, '20, 15:03

cero2k wrote:
Jan 20th, '20, 14:23
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jan 19th, '20, 14:01
cero2k wrote:
Jan 19th, '20, 13:24

They wouldn't even survive with lesser known names of the indies.
Except that without people they can use to draw, they wouldn't run the schedule they do. They'd just run the Florida loop and not care if they lose money because it's an investment in the talent and thus it's okay to lose money on the shows.
Thelone wrote:
Jan 20th, '20, 11:12
cero2k wrote:
Jan 19th, '20, 13:24
i've been saying it for years, NXT exists for the sole reason that they buy 'hottest free agents' . They wouldn't even survive with lesser known names of the indies.
The thing is, they got noticed in the first place when they had a lot less indy stars. The issue really is that NXT didn't find the balance to grow without outgrowing its original purpose. Like, a training facility isn't supposed to be a money maker anyway (not directly at least), but it's one thing to pay a few big indy names with a bunch of lower level guys/girls and random failed football players/bodybuilders/fitness models/whatever else (NXT before R-Evolution), it's another to pay dozens of indy/international names (most of them barely on TV), very few lower level wrestlers, and even more randoms that'll never be on NXT TV anyway (or bypass it completely because Vince's fetishes).
Exactly, NXT, the show is sustainable with the hired indie darlings, and even then, it barely started 'making money' when they moved to the US network. If it still had the FCW format with signings being modified and kept as no big deal, it would had been kept as that secret gem that fans had with FCW.
They got noticed at first because everything in WWE gets noticed when they tells us about it, but how long would that attention stay strong if not for when they hired the "NXT 5" and the consequent big hire every Takeover. Hires seemed to become scheduled, not opportunistic.
NXT got noticed long before WWE started pushing it. Did they ever once mention that Rollins or Big E. were NXT champions when those guys were on the main roster while simultaneously being NXT Champion? Not once. They started pushing NXT when they realized it was a major boon for the WWE Network. People started noticing NXT a year earlier. Hell, WWE never mentioned FCW once but people started paying attention to that towards the end. Yes, Rollins vs. Ambrose was a big part of that, but so was Rollins vs. Richie Steamboat and Mike Dalton's quest for the title and the rise of The Ascension (the faction, not the tag team) and Anti-Diva army (and Paige and Raquel Diaz in particular).
cero2k wrote:
Jan 20th, '20, 14:23
Anyway, the reason I brought up NXT was because they SHOULD be the first line of defense where we see how good the Performance Center is. I agree that not all failures shouldn't really fall on the fault of the PC (coughcoughMissConcussionRock'sCousincoughcough), but i'm not so sure we can give props to it for the successes either. Being 'pushed' doesn't equal being ready, being good, and in the same vein, lacking those things doesn't mean that a big dude is not going to get over turning a truck over or that a pretty face that can talk won't get over. The PC didn't teach Bliss how to have charisma, or Braun how to be big and destructive, and let's be real, Chad Gable or Ronda are an Olympic wrestlers, they just had to teach them how to work a fake match. they picking it up as quickly as Angle did shows that having basic training of a martial art matters A LOT. No one home grown reaches the level of the Indie darling turned NXT jobbers. Trevor Lee is still better than Roman Reigns inside the ring.
1. Roman Reigns is an FCW and Wild Samoans product, not an NXT one.
2. Not everyone gets to be a mega-star. People like Mandy Rose and Heavy Machinery are perfectly serviceable pro wrestlers in the roles that they are in. I think those should be considered successes for the school.
3. Do we know they didn't teach Bliss how to have charisma? Isn't promo class supposed to help with that (or at least help transfer any shoot charisma you have into something you can use in kayfabe so that you don't end like Roman Reigns)?
cero2k wrote:
Jan 19th, '20, 13:24
As a school or rehab center, I think the PC is terrible. I mean, no one in your list holds a candle to Yuya Uemura or Karl Fredericks when it comes to in-ring wrestling. Like it's been said before, why do they have guys like Ricochet or Cedric do drills when either could be teaching the class? Why do they train everyone the same when Braun's training should be different than Enzo Amore's?
In-ring? Yes, Yuya Uemura is much better than Mandy Rose. But never have I heard anyone say that Uemura is a particularly good promo. The PC tries to help with that. Ditto for finding gimmicks. And I'm not faulting the NJPW Dojo for that because NJPW is a very different company with a different set of priorities. Maybe Uemura wouldn't be so good in the ring if he had to practice promos.
Obviously that's not to say that the goal of the PC (and the Dojo, honestly) shouldn't be to train people to be great at both. But in WWE you can get away with being okay in the ring so long as you can talk and/or have a good look. NJPW you need to be able to work your ass off and they don't really care if you can't cut a promo to save your life.
Also, in the years that we've been watching NJPW, how many Young Lions have made it to the main roster? Not too many (Sho, Yoh, Finlay, Jay White, Henare, EVIL, Hiromu... and who else? Hikuleo and O-Kharn are still on excursion, and all of the others that come to mind as dojo graduates were members of the main roster by 2013 or so, such as Fale and El Desperado), and of the guys that have made it, Henare and Finlay are still pretty much JTTS-level at best.

Also, you're wrong that Braun's training should be different from Enzo's. Everyone needs to learn how to do the moves sagely and take the bumps safely, and everyone needs to learn the same psychology. The psychology they apply to their matches will often need to be different, but everyone needs to learn the same stuff.

cero2k wrote:
Jan 20th, '20, 14:23
The PC is a fantastic Gym, a great library of resources, an awesome AV Club, a complete fashion wardrobe, a good place to figure out gimmicks and talk to old people, but it'll never beat a NJ Dojo, a Storm Wrestling Academy, or a Wrestle Factory to give a few, when it comes to training a person from the bottom-up to become a 'pro wrestler'. Like I said, they're in the business of creating 'superstars', not pro wrestlers. As simple as seeing that the PC has an 'entrance ramp' of all things.
This is probably true, but they don't really need to do that too much because they can just sign people. The question you should be asking is not why the PC exists but rather why they keep spending money signing these random football players when they know they can't train them rather than telling them to go to Lance or Quack or wXw or whoever and then see if they actually turn out to be good and/or cut out for the wrestling lifestyle first.
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Re: 2 Cents: WWE Performance Center

Post by cero2k » Jan 20th, '20, 17:23

Big Red Machine wrote:
Jan 20th, '20, 15:03
NXT got noticed long before WWE started pushing it. Did they ever once mention that Rollins or Big E. were NXT champions when those guys were on the main roster while simultaneously being NXT Champion? Not once. They started pushing NXT when they realized it was a major boon for the WWE Network. People started noticing NXT a year earlier. Hell, WWE never mentioned FCW once but people started paying attention to that towards the end. Yes, Rollins vs. Ambrose was a big part of that, but so was Rollins vs. Richie Steamboat and Mike Dalton's quest for the title and the rise of The Ascension (the faction, not the tag team) and Anti-Diva army (and Paige and Raquel Diaz in particular).
They started noticing NXT when WWE made the announcement that FCW was being replaced by NXT. FCW had been making noise for some months before the rebranding thanks to Paige/Rollins/Moxley vs Regal, and the first generation of indie darlings being signed (Cesaro, Rollins, Mox, etc), but once the proper 'nxt' show became a thing, that's when people paid attention. The strong pushing came just months after the rebranding, but it's not that much really.

Big Red Machine wrote:
Jan 20th, '20, 15:03
1. Roman Reigns is an FCW and Wild Samoans product, not an NXT one.
2. Not everyone gets to be a mega-star. People like Mandy Rose and Heavy Machinery are perfectly serviceable pro wrestlers in the roles that they are in. I think those should be considered successes for the school.
3. Do we know they didn't teach Bliss how to have charisma? Isn't promo class supposed to help with that (or at least help transfer any shoot charisma you have into something you can use in kayfabe so that you don't end like Roman Reigns)?
1. true, and that kinda supports my point, home grown, i think Reigns is top three if not the best.
2. Again, success under what rubrix? they're not good wrestlers, they're not selling top numbers of t-shirts, they're not draws by themselves. We would have to think that WWE trained for the purpose of being jobbers or midcarders.
3. Aside from being told for 30 years that you can't teach the 'It factor', I guess we don't. We do know that Alexa has been involved since a little girl in many performance type of training and contests, so maybe she's the chad gable of charisma.

Big Red Machine wrote:
Jan 20th, '20, 15:03
In-ring? Yes, Yuya Uemura is much better than Mandy Rose. But never have I heard anyone say that Uemura is a particularly good promo. The PC tries to help with that. Ditto for finding gimmicks. And I'm not faulting the NJPW Dojo for that because NJPW is a very different company with a different set of priorities. Maybe Uemura wouldn't be so good in the ring if he had to practice promos.
Obviously that's not to say that the goal of the PC (and the Dojo, honestly) shouldn't be to train people to be great at both. But in WWE you can get away with being okay in the ring so long as you can talk and/or have a good look. NJPW you need to be able to work your ass off and they don't really care if you can't cut a promo to save your life.
Also, in the years that we've been watching NJPW, how many Young Lions have made it to the main roster? Not too many (Sho, Yoh, Finlay, Jay White, Henare, EVIL, Hiromu... and who else? Hikuleo and O-Kharn are still on excursion, and all of the others that come to mind as dojo graduates were members of the main roster by 2013 or so, such as Fale and El Desperado), and of the guys that have made it, Henare and Finlay are still pretty much JTTS-level at best.
The overall number of of NJ's graduates may be low, but the ratio from 'joined' to 'graduate' to 'star' is far bigger tho, and look at the level of wrestlers. We may not have heard Yuya cut many promos yet, but we've heard Hiromu and Jay and they're top level, better than 99% of WWE's roster.
They may be slower to produce, but they're better overall, and this is the perfect argument for your point about Vince being the issue here (especially bringing up Finlay and Henare). There's no need to rush anyone when you already have a strong roster, let them brew and learn. Meanwhile Vince brought in Lars and the man wasn't even mentally prepared to take on the spot.

Big Red Machine wrote:
Jan 20th, '20, 15:03
Also, you're wrong that Braun's training should be different from Enzo's. Everyone needs to learn how to do the moves sagely and take the bumps safely, and everyone needs to learn the same psychology. The psychology they apply to their matches will often need to be different, but everyone needs to learn the same stuff.
The things that we can come down as general basics are not that much really. Braun doesn't need to learn how to take bumps from a failed dive, hell, Braun doesn't need to learn dives at all. Psychology wise, Braun needs to learn to work as a monster, not an underdog, there are general basics sure, but that's just a little of the whole package.

Big Red Machine wrote:
Jan 20th, '20, 15:03
This is probably true, but they don't really need to do that too much because they can just sign people. The question you should be asking is not why the PC exists but rather why they keep spending money signing these random football players when they know they can't train them rather than telling them to go to Lance or Quack or wXw or whoever and then see if they actually turn out to be good and/or cut out for the wrestling lifestyle first.
at the end of the day, WWE wants cookie cutter drones, people who work a really specific style with a really specific look and a really specific look. I also think former wrestlers would be ok quitting WWE knowing that they can make it work in Japan or the indies, while football players and models tend to become WWE-lifers. You said it, WWE doesn't need good workers, they're ok with passable ones with good charisma/looks.
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Re: 2 Cents: WWE Performance Center

Post by Big Red Machine » Jan 20th, '20, 18:40

cero2k wrote:
Jan 20th, '20, 17:23
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jan 20th, '20, 15:03
NXT got noticed long before WWE started pushing it. Did they ever once mention that Rollins or Big E. were NXT champions when those guys were on the main roster while simultaneously being NXT Champion? Not once. They started pushing NXT when they realized it was a major boon for the WWE Network. People started noticing NXT a year earlier. Hell, WWE never mentioned FCW once but people started paying attention to that towards the end. Yes, Rollins vs. Ambrose was a big part of that, but so was Rollins vs. Richie Steamboat and Mike Dalton's quest for the title and the rise of The Ascension (the faction, not the tag team) and Anti-Diva army (and Paige and Raquel Diaz in particular).
They started noticing NXT when WWE made the announcement that FCW was being replaced by NXT. FCW had been making noise for some months before the rebranding thanks to Paige/Rollins/Moxley vs Regal, and the first generation of indie darlings being signed (Cesaro, Rollins, Mox, etc), but once the proper 'nxt' show became a thing, that's when people paid attention. The strong pushing came just months after the rebranding, but it's not that much really.
Dude... I was watching literally every episode of every WWE TV show. They never mentioned NXT once until they figured out it was something they could use to sell the Network.
cero2k wrote:
Jan 20th, '20, 17:23
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jan 20th, '20, 15:03
1. Roman Reigns is an FCW and Wild Samoans product, not an NXT one.
2. Not everyone gets to be a mega-star. People like Mandy Rose and Heavy Machinery are perfectly serviceable pro wrestlers in the roles that they are in. I think those should be considered successes for the school.
3. Do we know they didn't teach Bliss how to have charisma? Isn't promo class supposed to help with that (or at least help transfer any shoot charisma you have into something you can use in kayfabe so that you don't end like Roman Reigns)?
1. true, and that kinda supports my point, home grown, i think Reigns is top three if not the best.
2. Again, success under what rubrix? they're not good wrestlers, they're not selling top numbers of t-shirts, they're not draws by themselves. We would have to think that WWE trained for the purpose of being jobbers or midcarders.
3. Aside from being told for 30 years that you can't teach the 'It factor', I guess we don't. We do know that Alexa has been involved since a little girl in many performance type of training and contests, so maybe she's the chad gable of charisma.
1. Top 3 what? Top 3 best workers who weren't trained elsewhere (or at least not mostly trained elsewhere) to come out of FCW/NXT? I'd put Gable, Jordan, Dawkins, Charlotte, and probably Bliss above him, and that's without me really giving it too much thought, as I'm certain there are bunch of people I'm just not thinking of.

2. Success under the rubric of having created a serviceable character to fill out the undercard/midcard of a wrestling promotion. Not everyone needs to be a world title level wrestler.

3. Fair enough, but if we're saying "you can't teach the 'it' factor then your criticism of them for not having taught it is an unfair criticism by your own admission.
Also, look at all of the people whose promos have gotten better while in FCW/NXT. Rollins is the most obvious case, but there is Ciampa, Dijakovic, Rush, and a bunch of others who are much-improved over their indy days. They're doing something there that is helping people.
cero2k wrote:
Jan 20th, '20, 17:23
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jan 20th, '20, 15:03
In-ring? Yes, Yuya Uemura is much better than Mandy Rose. But never have I heard anyone say that Uemura is a particularly good promo. The PC tries to help with that. Ditto for finding gimmicks. And I'm not faulting the NJPW Dojo for that because NJPW is a very different company with a different set of priorities. Maybe Uemura wouldn't be so good in the ring if he had to practice promos.
Obviously that's not to say that the goal of the PC (and the Dojo, honestly) shouldn't be to train people to be great at both. But in WWE you can get away with being okay in the ring so long as you can talk and/or have a good look. NJPW you need to be able to work your ass off and they don't really care if you can't cut a promo to save your life.
Also, in the years that we've been watching NJPW, how many Young Lions have made it to the main roster? Not too many (Sho, Yoh, Finlay, Jay White, Henare, EVIL, Hiromu... and who else? Hikuleo and O-Kharn are still on excursion, and all of the others that come to mind as dojo graduates were members of the main roster by 2013 or so, such as Fale and El Desperado), and of the guys that have made it, Henare and Finlay are still pretty much JTTS-level at best.
The overall number of of NJ's graduates may be low, but the ratio from 'joined' to 'graduate' to 'star' is far bigger tho, and look at the level of wrestlers. We may not have heard Yuya cut many promos yet, but we've heard Hiromu and Jay and they're top level, better than 99% of WWE's roster.
They may be slower to produce, but they're better overall, and this is the perfect argument for your point about Vince being the issue here (especially bringing up Finlay and Henare). There's no need to rush anyone when you already have a strong roster, let them brew and learn. Meanwhile Vince brought in Lars and the man wasn't even mentally prepared to take on the spot.
Part of the reason the ratio is higher is because WWE takes a lot more people. Then again, we don't hear about all of the people who drop out of the dojo because they can't take it, whereas we do hear about every single WWE signing and release.
As for White and Hiromu being better than 99% of WWE's roster... I can't judge Hiromu's promos because I don't speak the language, but Jay White, while a good promo, is not particularly great, and certainly not better than the majority of the roster. I also think it's pretty obvious just from the difference in the promos we see from undercard dorks in WWE as opposed to the promos we see from undercard dorks in NXT (think Vanessa Bourne-level) that WWE's scripted system is pretty clearly hindering a lot of the wrestlers. My guess is that if you let some of these midcarders talk like real people, they'd be at least as good as Jay White. Look at how much better people seem to get overnight when WWE just lets them cut loose (Zayn, Lana, Rusev, Usos, Lio Rush, Roman, all of the guys who have left, etc.).
About Lars, what I've heard is that he was mentally prepared for the spot. The breakdown was about people finding those posts he made on the bodybuilding forums.
I'm not disagreeing that there is no reason to rush people up to the top spots, but I don't think that what New Japan does with a lot of these guys is helping them at all, either, where they wrestle in pointless undercard tag matches for years, taking 50-50 booking losses to/getting pointless 50-50 booking wins over other people who don't matter in matches everyone knows don't matter. If you look at the guys- both excursion returnees and people who NJPW just signed because they liked) who have actually been pushed towards the top of their divisions in NJPW in recent years, (White, EVIL, Zack, Ospreay, Scurll, El Phantasmo, Roppongi 3K, Omega, Ishimori, Sanada, Shingo) the only one who has gotten that treatment and managed to get over enough to be pushed is Juice. All of the others were brought in and protected by the likes of BUSHI, Chase Owens, YOSHI-HASHI, Gedo, Jado, Rocky, Yujiro, Page, etc. taking the losses on their teams. Toa Henare is almost certainly not going to get any sort of major push in New Japan. The way WWE books newcomers and the way NJPW books them are not that different. They make a decision as to what their ceiling is and treat them accordingly. And I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that. I'm saying that if you're okay with NJPW doing it, you should be okay with WWE doing it, too.
cero2k wrote:
Jan 20th, '20, 17:23
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jan 20th, '20, 15:03
Also, you're wrong that Braun's training should be different from Enzo's. Everyone needs to learn how to do the moves sagely and take the bumps safely, and everyone needs to learn the same psychology. The psychology they apply to their matches will often need to be different, but everyone needs to learn the same stuff.
The things that we can come down as general basics are not that much really. Braun doesn't need to learn how to take bumps from a failed dive, hell, Braun doesn't need to learn dives at all. Psychology wise, Braun needs to learn to work as a monster, not an underdog, there are general basics sure, but that's just a little of the whole package.
And have you seen Braun working as the underdog without their being overwhelming odds, or missing dives?
cero2k wrote:
Jan 20th, '20, 17:23
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jan 20th, '20, 15:03
This is probably true, but they don't really need to do that too much because they can just sign people. The question you should be asking is not why the PC exists but rather why they keep spending money signing these random football players when they know they can't train them rather than telling them to go to Lance or Quack or wXw or whoever and then see if they actually turn out to be good and/or cut out for the wrestling lifestyle first.
at the end of the day, WWE wants cookie cutter drones, people who work a really specific style with a really specific look and a really specific look. I also think former wrestlers would be ok quitting WWE knowing that they can make it work in Japan or the indies, while football players and models tend to become WWE-lifers. You said it, WWE doesn't need good workers, they're ok with passable ones with good charisma/looks.
I don't think the cookie-cutter thing applies as much anymore (outside of the women's division). They are accepting of a lot more styles than they used to be. They do WWE-ify everything, but the way they do it is with their branding and with a lot of the match structures (and particularly on TV). They're not telling Ricochet he can't do dives. They're telling him to make sure he does one right before the commercial break, and making sure that the heel has a chinlock in when we get back from break. Drew and Joe still beat the sh*t out of people, Aleister Black still goes for the knockout, Ricochet still does dives and flips, and Drew Gulak still uses submissions to get the win.
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Re: 2 Cents: WWE Performance Center

Post by cero2k » Jan 21st, '20, 11:01

Big Red Machine wrote:
Jan 20th, '20, 18:40
Dude... I was watching literally every episode of every WWE TV show. They never mentioned NXT once until they figured out it was something they could use to sell the Network.
There's more than WWE tv in this world. When NXT replaced FCW, it was a big deal.
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jan 20th, '20, 18:40
1. Top 3 what? Top 3 best workers who weren't trained elsewhere (or at least not mostly trained elsewhere) to come out of FCW/NXT? I'd put Gable, Jordan, Dawkins, Charlotte, and probably Bliss above him, and that's without me really giving it too much thought, as I'm certain there are bunch of people I'm just not thinking of.

2. Success under the rubric of having created a serviceable character to fill out the undercard/midcard of a wrestling promotion. Not everyone needs to be a world title level wrestler.

3. Fair enough, but if we're saying "you can't teach the 'it' factor then your criticism of them for not having taught it is an unfair criticism by your own admission.
Also, look at all of the people whose promos have gotten better while in FCW/NXT. Rollins is the most obvious case, but there is Ciampa, Dijakovic, Rush, and a bunch of others who are much-improved over their indy days. They're doing something there that is helping people.
1. i'd give you Gable and he's a former olympic wrestler, the rest are passable and not better then Reigns. I know you love Bliss, but her wrestling is not her forte.
2. So booking a jobber with zero potential to exceed. got it. I don't know why anyone would want to do that, but that does sound like something WWE would do.
3. It's not unfair. the multi-billion dollar company that wants to create actors and not wrestlers should be able to get acting coaching for the talent that really needs it. Just because Bliss is a natural speaker, doesn't mean that you should let Nia Jax cut those terrible promos in the main roster.
Getting better doesn't mean you actually reach 'good'. Rollins is a terrible promo, if anything else, it exposes how bad the promo work in ROH was/is. There are good promos in WWE, but no one is particularly above average, year to year, it's always the same people who get the nod, Heyman, Miz, Bray, somewhat Bryan.
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jan 20th, '20, 18:40
Part of the reason the ratio is higher is because WWE takes a lot more people. Then again, we don't hear about all of the people who drop out of the dojo because they can't take it, whereas we do hear about every single WWE signing and release.
As for White and Hiromu being better than 99% of WWE's roster... I can't judge Hiromu's promos because I don't speak the language, but Jay White, while a good promo, is not particularly great, and certainly not better than the majority of the roster. I also think it's pretty obvious just from the difference in the promos we see from undercard dorks in WWE as opposed to the promos we see from undercard dorks in NXT (think Vanessa Bourne-level) that WWE's scripted system is pretty clearly hindering a lot of the wrestlers. My guess is that if you let some of these midcarders talk like real people, they'd be at least as good as Jay White. Look at how much better people seem to get overnight when WWE just lets them cut loose (Zayn, Lana, Rusev, Usos, Lio Rush, Roman, all of the guys who have left, etc.).
About Lars, what I've heard is that he was mentally prepared for the spot. The breakdown was about people finding those posts he made on the bodybuilding forums.
I'm not disagreeing that there is no reason to rush people up to the top spots, but I don't think that what New Japan does with a lot of these guys is helping them at all, either, where they wrestle in pointless undercard tag matches for years, taking 50-50 booking losses to/getting pointless 50-50 booking wins over other people who don't matter in matches everyone knows don't matter. If you look at the guys- both excursion returnees and people who NJPW just signed because they liked) who have actually been pushed towards the top of their divisions in NJPW in recent years, (White, EVIL, Zack, Ospreay, Scurll, El Phantasmo, Roppongi 3K, Omega, Ishimori, Sanada, Shingo) the only one who has gotten that treatment and managed to get over enough to be pushed is Juice. All of the others were brought in and protected by the likes of BUSHI, Chase Owens, YOSHI-HASHI, Gedo, Jado, Rocky, Yujiro, Page, etc. taking the losses on their teams. Toa Henare is almost certainly not going to get any sort of major push in New Japan. The way WWE books newcomers and the way NJPW books them are not that different. They make a decision as to what their ceiling is and treat them accordingly. And I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that. I'm saying that if you're okay with NJPW doing it, you should be okay with WWE doing it, too.
There's still no reason why WWE has a low ratio of 'zero to wrestler' graduates, and at such low level of quality for that matter. They have like 10x the resources that every other company in the world has, their school literally has like 5 rings, an entrance, like 15 trainers, they even have their own local show circuit.
If the scripted promos are a problem, then i'm gonna use one of your arguments and say that scripted promos is how the company works and that is the standard and they should be judged by that, and if that is the case, then we have to accept that everyone is going to be worse than the industry standard by that handicap.
The difference between NJPW and WWE is that i KNOW that any given day, anyone can be slightly pushed and made relevant, in WWE i KNOW that some people will NEVER be relevant. Taking pins in NJPW doesn't really hurt you like it does in WWE. In NJPW I understand that there is a circle of life, you start losing, you become relevant if you're good enough, and when you're old, you go back to curtain jerkers and taking pins. We're seeing that with Finlay, Young Lion > Jobber > Tag Champ > Singles Champ? > top Gaijin?. Henare given the style may one day replace Ishii or Goto in that brawler role and get his runs with the tag titles and the NEVER title. In WWE, I have no reason to believe that Trevor Lee (as a random example) will ever do something in the company, to me that is a big difference, there are many wrestlers that you can invest yourself in and never get a pay off, and i'm not even talking championships, but being showcased in big events and having good matches.
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jan 20th, '20, 18:40
And have you seen Braun working as the underdog without their being overwhelming odds, or missing dives?
There are many big guys doing dives in WWE, and wasn't Keith Lee a babyface in peril not long ago?. But the problem is not whether they do them or not in the show, it is that according to the videos of the WWE PC and some insider's comments, classes are usually general.

Big Red Machine wrote:
Jan 20th, '20, 18:40
I don't think the cookie-cutter thing applies as much anymore (outside of the women's division). They are accepting of a lot more styles than they used to be. They do WWE-ify everything, but the way they do it is with their branding and with a lot of the match structures (and particularly on TV). They're not telling Ricochet he can't do dives. They're telling him to make sure he does one right before the commercial break, and making sure that the heel has a chinlock in when we get back from break. Drew and Joe still beat the sh*t out of people, Aleister Black still goes for the knockout, Ricochet still does dives and flips, and Drew Gulak still uses submissions to get the win.
And all those are people they 'bought', but the ones they create are all still pretty much cookie cutter. WWE doesn't really train 'luchadors' or submission artists for instance. I think WWE is more willing to allow some people to do their thing because they realized with NXT that fans like indie darlings, but deep down, they'd probably wish they all looked like Cena.
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Re: 2 Cents: WWE Performance Center

Post by Big Red Machine » Jan 21st, '20, 18:47

cero2k wrote:
Jan 21st, '20, 11:01
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jan 20th, '20, 18:40
Dude... I was watching literally every episode of every WWE TV show. They never mentioned NXT once until they figured out it was something they could use to sell the Network.
There's more than WWE tv in this world. When NXT replaced FCW, it was a big deal.
You're acting like FCW wasn't WWE-dominated already. Same booking crew, same money behind it, 99% the same talent. And no, it was not a big deal. It was barely talked about, other than Steve Keirn being annoyed that they cut ties with him.
cero2k wrote:
Jan 21st, '20, 11:01
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jan 20th, '20, 18:40
1. Top 3 what? Top 3 best workers who weren't trained elsewhere (or at least not mostly trained elsewhere) to come out of FCW/NXT? I'd put Gable, Jordan, Dawkins, Charlotte, and probably Bliss above him, and that's without me really giving it too much thought, as I'm certain there are bunch of people I'm just not thinking of.

2. Success under the rubric of having created a serviceable character to fill out the undercard/midcard of a wrestling promotion. Not everyone needs to be a world title level wrestler.

3. Fair enough, but if we're saying "you can't teach the 'it' factor then your criticism of them for not having taught it is an unfair criticism by your own admission.
Also, look at all of the people whose promos have gotten better while in FCW/NXT. Rollins is the most obvious case, but there is Ciampa, Dijakovic, Rush, and a bunch of others who are much-improved over their indy days. They're doing something there that is helping people.
1. i'd give you Gable and he's a former olympic wrestler, the rest are passable and not better then Reigns. I know you love Bliss, but her wrestling is not her forte.
2. So booking a jobber with zero potential to exceed. got it. I don't know why anyone would want to do that, but that does sound like something WWE would do.
3. It's not unfair. the multi-billion dollar company that wants to create actors and not wrestlers should be able to get acting coaching for the talent that really needs it. Just because Bliss is a natural speaker, doesn't mean that you should let Nia Jax cut those terrible promos in the main roster.
Getting better doesn't mean you actually reach 'good'. Rollins is a terrible promo, if anything else, it exposes how bad the promo work in ROH was/is. There are good promos in WWE, but no one is particularly above average, year to year, it's always the same people who get the nod, Heyman, Miz, Bray, somewhat Bryan.
Dude... Dawkins and Jordan are better than Roman. Especially Dawkins. You don't realize how good the guy until you see his EVOLVE stuff. He and Montez are talented as hell. Roman's matches are the same three spots over and over, unless he works with someone like Bryan or Cesaro. At least Bliss changes it up. Charlotte is MUCH better than Reigns. I don't see how you can even argue that.

2. Booking a character who can have uses on your show. A YOSHI-HASHI or Taichi or Chase Owens.

3. You're right that Jax shouldn't be talking, but that doesn't mean that she has no value. People who can't talk should be put with managers. The problem is that Vince doesn't like managers and so people from the school who shouldn't be talking are forced to talk, and thus they come off bad.
I think Rollins is perfectly adequate. He's not great, but considering where he started from, I think the school did him a lot of good.
As for consistently great promos in WWE (and I'd take Bray off that list) you're forgetting Owens, Joe, Zayn, Sasha Banks, Becky Lynch, Bliss, McIntyre, Street Profits, Zelina Vega, Mustafa Ali, Gulak... even Braun is pretty good for his character. Lana has stepped up a lot recently (since they've let her be less scripted).
cero2k wrote:
Jan 21st, '20, 11:01
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jan 20th, '20, 18:40
Part of the reason the ratio is higher is because WWE takes a lot more people. Then again, we don't hear about all of the people who drop out of the dojo because they can't take it, whereas we do hear about every single WWE signing and release.
As for White and Hiromu being better than 99% of WWE's roster... I can't judge Hiromu's promos because I don't speak the language, but Jay White, while a good promo, is not particularly great, and certainly not better than the majority of the roster. I also think it's pretty obvious just from the difference in the promos we see from undercard dorks in WWE as opposed to the promos we see from undercard dorks in NXT (think Vanessa Bourne-level) that WWE's scripted system is pretty clearly hindering a lot of the wrestlers. My guess is that if you let some of these midcarders talk like real people, they'd be at least as good as Jay White. Look at how much better people seem to get overnight when WWE just lets them cut loose (Zayn, Lana, Rusev, Usos, Lio Rush, Roman, all of the guys who have left, etc.).
About Lars, what I've heard is that he was mentally prepared for the spot. The breakdown was about people finding those posts he made on the bodybuilding forums.
I'm not disagreeing that there is no reason to rush people up to the top spots, but I don't think that what New Japan does with a lot of these guys is helping them at all, either, where they wrestle in pointless undercard tag matches for years, taking 50-50 booking losses to/getting pointless 50-50 booking wins over other people who don't matter in matches everyone knows don't matter. If you look at the guys- both excursion returnees and people who NJPW just signed because they liked) who have actually been pushed towards the top of their divisions in NJPW in recent years, (White, EVIL, Zack, Ospreay, Scurll, El Phantasmo, Roppongi 3K, Omega, Ishimori, Sanada, Shingo) the only one who has gotten that treatment and managed to get over enough to be pushed is Juice. All of the others were brought in and protected by the likes of BUSHI, Chase Owens, YOSHI-HASHI, Gedo, Jado, Rocky, Yujiro, Page, etc. taking the losses on their teams. Toa Henare is almost certainly not going to get any sort of major push in New Japan. The way WWE books newcomers and the way NJPW books them are not that different. They make a decision as to what their ceiling is and treat them accordingly. And I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that. I'm saying that if you're okay with NJPW doing it, you should be okay with WWE doing it, too.
There's still no reason why WWE has a low ratio of 'zero to wrestler' graduates, and at such low level of quality for that matter. They have like 10x the resources that every other company in the world has, their school literally has like 5 rings, an entrance, like 15 trainers, they even have their own local show circuit.
Well... to start with, the indy signings are taking all of the spots so the ground-up people don't get as many opportunities. I'm not saying the school doesn't have a good ratio. I'm saying look at the number of minor league baseball players who get signed who never make it to the majors. How many of Lance Storm's trainees never made it anywhere? You're missing the point of the whole system. It's not to take everyone and make them a star. It's to take as many people as possible in the hopes that just a few of them will become stars.

cero2k wrote:
Jan 21st, '20, 11:01
If the scripted promos are a problem, then i'm gonna use one of your arguments and say that scripted promos is how the company works and that is the standard and they should be judged by that, and if that is the case, then we have to accept that everyone is going to be worse than the industry standard by that handicap.
I don't know about worse than industry standard. You're forgetting just how many indies there are out there with guys who can't talk for sh*t.
While your overall point here is not wrong, that is a failing of the main roster's system rather than a failing of the school's. Ricochet was a better promo in NXT than he has been on the main roster. Same for Roode, Heavy Machinery, and a whole bunch of others.

cero2k wrote:
Jan 21st, '20, 11:01
The difference between NJPW and WWE is that i KNOW that any given day, anyone can be slightly pushed and made relevant, in WWE i KNOW that some people will NEVER be relevant. Taking pins in NJPW doesn't really hurt you like it does in WWE. In NJPW I understand that there is a circle of life, you start losing, you become relevant if you're good enough, and when you're old, you go back to curtain jerkers and taking pins. We're seeing that with Finlay, Young Lion > Jobber > Tag Champ > Singles Champ? > top Gaijin?. Henare given the style may one day replace Ishii or Goto in that brawler role and get his runs with the tag titles and the NEVER title. In WWE, I have no reason to believe that Trevor Lee (as a random example) will ever do something in the company, to me that is a big difference, there are many wrestlers that you can invest yourself in and never get a pay off, and i'm not even talking championships, but being showcased in big events and having good matches.
Again... you're not wrong, but that's not the school's fault.
That being said... I'm betting you never thought Buddy Murphy would hold a title on the main roster, either, and yet here we are.

cero2k wrote:
Jan 21st, '20, 11:01
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jan 20th, '20, 18:40
And have you seen Braun working as the underdog without their being overwhelming odds, or missing dives?
There are many big guys doing dives in WWE, and wasn't Keith Lee a babyface in peril not long ago?. But the problem is not whether they do them or not in the show, it is that according to the videos of the WWE PC and some insider's comments, classes are usually general.
And you see big guys doing dives in ROH, TNA, and AEW, too. That's just how things are, now. Dustin Runnels is fifty years old and one of the biggest guys on AEW's roster and his new move that he does in every match is a Canadian Destroyer.
I think Keith Lee can be the babyface in peril if you do it right (and I think doing so every now and a again is important just to break up the monotony. In kayfabe, if Robert always has to bail Ricky out, then Ricky kind of sucks, doesn't he?

cero2k wrote:
Jan 21st, '20, 11:01
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jan 20th, '20, 18:40
I don't think the cookie-cutter thing applies as much anymore (outside of the women's division). They are accepting of a lot more styles than they used to be. They do WWE-ify everything, but the way they do it is with their branding and with a lot of the match structures (and particularly on TV). They're not telling Ricochet he can't do dives. They're telling him to make sure he does one right before the commercial break, and making sure that the heel has a chinlock in when we get back from break. Drew and Joe still beat the sh*t out of people, Aleister Black still goes for the knockout, Ricochet still does dives and flips, and Drew Gulak still uses submissions to get the win.
And all those are people they 'bought', but the ones they create are all still pretty much cookie cutter. WWE doesn't really train 'luchadors' or submission artists for instance. I think WWE is more willing to allow some people to do their thing because they realized with NXT that fans like indie darlings, but deep down, they'd probably wish they all looked like Cena.
What they want deep down is irrelevant. What matters is what they put on our screens. Vince can wish that Kevin Owens looked like Bobby Lashley all he wants, but so long as Owens is getting pushed commiserate with his talent, then who cares?
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Re: 2 Cents: WWE Performance Center

Post by Bob-O » Jan 22nd, '20, 11:12

Serujuunin wrote:
Jan 19th, '20, 20:20
The best analogy I can think of is like a school system. It's not really a primary school, where people go in with little to no idea of what's going on. I would argue it's not even really like a secondary school for a lot of people, reinforcing the concepts taught in primary school and tying them together into larger concepts. To me, the PC is like a university. People go in with some understanding of the system, what is expected of them, and having enrolled in a program that they've chosen, are emotionally invested, and not necessarily going in blind. It just makes people better.
It just makes people better is my issue. It's what it's become, and I'm not trying to take away what a phenomenal tool it is for ANYONE with access to it to take advantage of it's many offerings. My issue is that over 50% of this University is in Kindergarten and won't see it out because they evidently don't teach grades 2 through 6. They have some of the best teachers in the world, they have A TON OF THEM, there's really no excuse for it.
Thelone wrote:
Jan 20th, '20, 11:12
cero2k wrote:
Jan 19th, '20, 13:24
i've been saying it for years, NXT exists for the sole reason that they buy 'hottest free agents' . They wouldn't even survive with lesser known names of the indies.
The thing is, they got noticed in the first place when they had a lot less indy stars. The issue really is that NXT didn't find the balance to grow without outgrowing its original purpose. Like, a training facility isn't supposed to be a money maker anyway (not directly at least), but it's one thing to pay a few big indy names with a bunch of lower level guys/girls and random failed football players/bodybuilders/fitness models/whatever else (NXT before R-Evolution), it's another to pay dozens of indy/international names (most of them barely on TV), very few lower level wrestlers, and even more randoms that'll never be on NXT TV anyway (or bypass it completely because Vince's fetishes).

I have and will forever say that NXT took off because it was the only original wrestling show on the network. The indy stars helped, it doesn't hurt that it's been a GOOD show fairly consistently, but NXT and 205 were the only original in-ring shows on The Network. It was my biggest gripe about The Network. I think an FCWish NXT would have survived based on that alone, it wouldn't have grown to what NXT has, but I think it'd have still been the most watched thing on the Network outside of PPV's because there's nothing else new to watch. Fite has absolutely brought me more joy for $10/mo...


Not going to sift through the sand of this beach for the rest of the quotes I'm looking for. We can talk about the indy guys bloating out the roster and Vince being a crazy old man all day long. The school's been in operation for 7 years and has one "graduate" that's won a singles title beyond Alexa? They got 4 World Champion-Marquis Names from OVW in half the time, who all talk about their training in OVW fondly. This is a company who's top merchandise seller (Becky) BARELY edged out John Cena in 2019, a guy that didn't wrestle all year. A company who's toy lines are consistently comprised of mostly inactive or retired guys. Their biggest draw has them by the balls for a small fortune and a handful of dates each year. If I'm them, I'm not going to brag about my in-house system producing midcard talent and show filler... in 7 years, there's no excuse!

In big letters on their website it says "LIVE THE DREAM, BECOME A WWE SUPERSTAR!" It's a lot of time, you'd think by now there'd be SOMEBODY SOMEWHERE saying, "It didn't work out for me there, but I wouldn't be where I'm at here if it weren't for the great training I received at the WWE Performance Center..." Off the tip of my tongue I can rattle off names like Killer Kiwalski, Lance Storm, The Wild Samoans, Johnny Rodz... because they trained people! The only thing you really hear about guys leaving the WWE Training system outside of their own shilling is how people couldn't wait to get the fuck out of it. I don't associate this school with "training", even when it DOES come down to guys fine tuning things, and I should! It's the biggest most technologically advanced wrestling school in the world, getting in there should be like getting accepted to Harvard.


Here's a thought... while browsing their website I noticed that under "In Ring Training", it notes that The PC is connected to WWE Headquarters so trainees can receive "real-time feedback from WWE executives!", so on top of learning from 12 different coaches, you're also getting feedback from the guys in Stamford... and if the behind the scenes shows have shown me anything, it's that nobody there ever agrees on anything. I'm wondering if it's a "too many cooks" thing... nothing like busting your ass with all the coaching and feedback Steve Corino, Shawn Micheals, Terry Taylor, and William Regal give you to finally have Kevin Dunn tell you that you're the shits over live stream. Or bump into Matt Riddle one day who says "They told you to WHAT? Bro... no... don't listen to them..."

Here's another fun tidbit I got from the website. Aleister Black on working with Shawn Micheals:
“I don’t think commenting on Coach Michaels will do any justice to how much it means or how crazy it is to have someone like Shawn Michaels as your coach and mentor. Shawn changed wrestling and helped shape a new generation of wrestling because of it, and now to have him directly involved in NXT is nothing short of incredible.”
That's literally the entire quote... and it's the one they picked for his profile... sounds like Shawn is pretty busy shaping the future down there...
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Re: 2 Cents: WWE Performance Center

Post by Big Red Machine » Jan 22nd, '20, 15:56

Will respond more when I get home, bit for now the thing that jumps out at me is the key not of context missing from the "OVW produced for marquis world champions" statement, which is the fact that there was a HUGE vacuum in WWE at that time, as withinh a fee months of those guys getting called up, Rock and Austin left. Over the years that those guys developed, Hogan, Nash, Rock. Goldberg, Austin, and Brock himself all left. It's no accident that those guys got made at the same time Edge, Benoit and Eddie also got their big pushes.
And for every Orton, Cena, and Batista who got pushed to the moon, there was an RVD, Christian, or Booker T who didn't get pushed to the moon (or Jericho getting de-pushed) and everyone complained about it.
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Re: 2 Cents: WWE Performance Center

Post by Thelone » Jan 22nd, '20, 17:27

Bob-O wrote:
Jan 22nd, '20, 11:12
I have and will forever say that NXT took off because it was the only original wrestling show on the network. The indy stars helped, it doesn't hurt that it's been a GOOD show fairly consistently, but NXT and 205 were the only original in-ring shows on The Network. It was my biggest gripe about The Network. I think an FCWish NXT would have survived based on that alone, it wouldn't have grown to what NXT has, but I think it'd have still been the most watched thing on the Network outside of PPV's because there's nothing else new to watch. Fite has absolutely brought me more joy for $10/mo...
To be honest, my point was more that it was "easier" to be a money loser when there were 2-3 former indy names and mostly a bunch of people paid minimum wage (and I kinda doubt Zayn and Neville were paid as much as Cole anyway), than now with something like 25-30 indy stars and even more nobodies. Yes, NXT grew since 2014 and I'm not saying they were losing money like WCW, but since it hasn't been developmental since 2015, it was time to find a TV deal.

Also, has Charlotte been mentioned so far? I'd say she's the best the PC churned out since its creation.

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Re: 2 Cents: WWE Performance Center

Post by Big Red Machine » Jan 22nd, '20, 20:50

Bob-O wrote:
Jan 22nd, '20, 11:12



Not going to sift through the sand of this beach for the rest of the quotes I'm looking for. We can talk about the indy guys bloating out the roster and Vince being a crazy old man all day long. The school's been in operation for 7 years and has one "graduate" that's won a singles title beyond Alexa? They got 4 World Champion-Marquis Names from OVW in half the time, who all talk about their training in OVW fondly. This is a company who's top merchandise seller (Becky) BARELY edged out John Cena in 2019, a guy that didn't wrestle all year. A company who's toy lines are consistently comprised of mostly inactive or retired guys. Their biggest draw has them by the balls for a small fortune and a handful of dates each year. If I'm them, I'm not going to brag about my in-house system producing midcard talent and show filler... in 7 years, there's no excuse!
1. Why are you slighting the tag teams? A lot of NXT/FCW trainees have held tag team gold. Part of the reason for that is because that's where the openings have been.

2. Charlotte, Corbin, Carmella, Enzo, Nia Jax... oh, and technically Ronda Rousey- is certainly more than "Bliss and one other person." I also think it's pretty fair to assume that Jason Jordan was on his way to singles gold before his injury, and Big Cass probably was, too, before his injury and then attitude problems.

3. I don't know what you've been reading, but Batista used to absolutely trash his time in OVW, claiming that Cornette didn't reach him much of anything because he wouldn't let him talk, and never had him have to sell or to work long matches.
Brock, too, isn't known for speaking fondly of his time in OVW.
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Re: 2 Cents: WWE Performance Center

Post by Big Red Machine » Jan 22nd, '20, 20:55

Bob-O wrote:
Jan 22nd, '20, 11:12


In big letters on their website it says "LIVE THE DREAM, BECOME A WWE SUPERSTAR!" It's a lot of time, you'd think by now there'd be SOMEBODY SOMEWHERE saying, "It didn't work out for me there, but I wouldn't be where I'm at here if it weren't for the great training I received at the WWE Performance Center..." Off the tip of my tongue I can rattle off names like Killer Kiwalski, Lance Storm, The Wild Samoans, Johnny Rodz... because they trained people! The only thing you really hear about guys leaving the WWE Training system outside of their own shilling is how people couldn't wait to get the fuck out of it. I don't associate this school with "training", even when it DOES come down to guys fine tuning things, and I should! It's the biggest most technologically advanced wrestling school in the world, getting in there should be like getting accepted to Harvard.
Yes, you can name all of those guys because they trained people... but you don't know how many of the guys they trained never went anywhere. And with a lot of other indy trainers (Quack, the CZW school), a lot of the reason we know such a high percentage of their trainees is because they put the trainees on the show because they knew they could pay them peanuts. What I'm saying is that the PC is doing something that has never been done on such a massive scale before and never so publicly before, so I don't think it's fair to call them a failure for having such a high miss rate and because we know about all of their failures.
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Re: 2 Cents: WWE Performance Center

Post by Thelone » Jan 23rd, '20, 09:44

Overall, the PC suffers from the same issues as WWE : it's overbloated, they can't seem to drop the dead weight because "but what if", and the recruiting process is all over the place.

Let's take Ruas for example : the guy seems to be doing some good work in Evolve, but he's also 38 and in developmental since 2016. Clearly, they have no plans for him besides being a good hand for the Florida loop (which is fine), but why aren't you using him more on TV (only five matches in two years) as a regular enhancement talent instead of dumping him in Evolve?

They have quite a few people in developmental who are either getting up there in age* (hell, some of the top stars in NXT aren't spring chickens anymore) and/or have been there for a while and are going nowhere fast**. At some point, it's ok to trim the fat, those guys/girls are stuck in developmental for a reason and aren't going to be the next Rock elsewhere (*cough* Shawn Spears *cough*).

* Ruas (38), some indian guy named Jeet Rama (39), Kavita Devi (36), a german MMA guy named Nicolai Solchow (36), Saurav Gurjar who's another indian guy (35), Tino Sabbatelli (36), and probably more who aren't worthy of a Cagematch page
** Aliyah (regularly on TV, but hasn't improved at all by the looks of it), Ruas again (but at least he has a spot, even if it isn't on TV), Babatunde (his only appearance was in a battle royale in one of the Saudi shows), Cezar Bononi (barely on TV anymore), Dorian Mak and Riddick Moss (they were on NXT UK recently), Rama again (never been on TV and he's been there since 2015), Kona Reeves (also on NXT UK), Shane Thorne (bit of a stretch perhaps), Steve Cutler and Wesley Blake (Forgotten Sons is most likely their last chance at... something) and Sabbatelli (he stopped wrestling almost two years ago, so why is he still there?)

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