2 Cents: Boneyard Match

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cero2k
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2 Cents: Boneyard Match

Post by cero2k » Apr 5th, '20, 12:48

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Re: 2 Cents: Boneyard Match

Post by cero2k » Apr 5th, '20, 12:49

No in my opinion. There was no 'sports' aspect to it, it was just a fight with no rules or limitations. This was no different from Batman and Bane going one-one-one to defend what they believe in. Was it entertainment? 100%, it was a movie. I think Lucha Underground and the Final Deletion opened the doors to a new and evolved way of doing storytelling, but that's as far as it goes.
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Re: 2 Cents: Boneyard Match

Post by NWK2000 » Apr 5th, '20, 13:43

And ultimately, I think, safer for the wrestlers. You can have take precautions reserved for stuntmen , not everything has to be filmed and one take, and I imagine they can work lighter with strikes because you can add effects in in post. If the older guys get this treatment once a year , you can add on 2-3 years to their career as a whole.

Now, I say all of that as someone who can also appreciate 2002 Ring of Honor non nonsense technical wizardry. The "sports" vs "enternainment" debate this question poses brings me to another point There's a time and a place for everything, and when I tune in to WWE I expect complete fantasy, something more entertainment based . When I tune in to New Japan I expect high workrate. When I tune into AEW or Impact, I expect a little bit of both I think a problem with the wrestling community sometimes is that we struggle to put on specific thinking caps when we watch specific promotions. We aren't going to get a technical masterpiece from Goldberg, so why should I be mad when he does the thing he's done since 1997? Just an example obviously, but I think it's important as wrestling fans to temper our expectations to the shows we tune in to watch.
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Re: 2 Cents: Boneyard Match

Post by KILLdozer » Apr 5th, '20, 16:25

This is probably the best you could get in the state of the world right now, and at the moment I don't agree nor approve of the fact they're still putting on shows, empty arena or not. We as fans don't need them to put on shows regardless-especially ones we've gotten lately. We as humans need them to stay home just like anyone and everyone else. All sporting events are canceled. Wrestlers are no different than any other athlete at the end of the day.
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Re: 2 Cents: Boneyard Match

Post by Big Red Machine » Apr 5th, '20, 17:03

cero2k wrote:
Apr 5th, '20, 12:49
No in my opinion. There was no 'sports' aspect to it, it was just a fight with no rules or limitations. This was no different from Batman and Bane going one-one-one to defend what they believe in. Was it entertainment? 100%, it was a movie. I think Lucha Underground and the Final Deletion opened the doors to a new and evolved way of doing storytelling, but that's as far as it goes.
THIS.

The Final Deletion in particular I thought was great, but I thought the second one they tried showed that they (and WWE, too) learned all of the wrong lessons from it. Everyone seemed to come out of it thinking that the effects were what made it work, but they're weren't. The effects are what made it different, but keeping the idea/structure of a wrestling match was what made it work.

I absolutely hated this whole thing. Cheap plug for my review, which I just uploaded.
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Re: 2 Cents: Boneyard Match

Post by Big Red Machine » Apr 5th, '20, 17:04

KILLdozer wrote:
Apr 5th, '20, 16:25
This is probably the best you could get in the state of the world right now.
I strongly disagree. The failings of this "match" (and of the first night as a whole) were due to decisions entirely within WWE's control.
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Re: 2 Cents: Boneyard Match

Post by Big Red Machine » Apr 5th, '20, 17:06

NWK2000 wrote:
Apr 5th, '20, 13:43
We aren't going to get a technical masterpiece from Goldberg, so why should I be mad when he does the thing he's done since 1997?
You're acting like Goldberg squashed everybody, but he didn't. They built him up with squashes, but then as he faced guys in big matches like Hogan, Nash, Steiner, DDP, the matches got more and more competitive. Even Goldberg vs. Mongo from Starrcade 1997 (which I think was his first PPV match) wasn't a squash. It went almost six minutes.
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Re: 2 Cents: Boneyard Match

Post by Big Red Machine » Apr 5th, '20, 17:21

NWK2000 wrote:
Apr 5th, '20, 13:43


Now, I say all of that as someone who can also appreciate 2002 Ring of Honor non nonsense technical wizardry. The "sports" vs "enternainment" debate this question poses brings me to another point There's a time and a place for everything, and when I tune in to WWE I expect complete fantasy, something more entertainment based . When I tune in to New Japan I expect high workrate. When I tune into AEW or Impact, I expect a little bit of both I think a problem with the wrestling community sometimes is that we struggle to put on specific thinking caps when we watch specific promotions. We aren't going to get a technical masterpiece from Goldberg, so why should I be mad when he does the thing he's done since 1997? Just an example obviously, but I think it's important as wrestling fans to temper our expectations to the shows we tune in to watch.
I mostly don't buy your caps argument for the following reasons:
1. The promotions themselves keep telling me that they're the best at everything. When I put on my LU cap it allows me to believe in magic. It doesn't mean that I lower my work-rate expectations for a big blow-off. Even in a place like CHIKARA, where the storyline payoff is the real thing, if that payoff is supposed to be the actual result of a match (I.e. someone going for a title), I expect the work-rate to be high. If it's going to be an emotional storyline moment afterwards then the match not being so great doesn't matter quite as much, but if you're going to put a lot of time into the match, I expect it to be good, no matter what. If what really matters is the big turn after the match and the workers involved aren't great and you can get away with only going nine minutes and not eighteen, then go nine and move it lower on the card.

2. Pro wrestling is still pro wrestling and the characters are still supposed to be actual people. Even early 90s WWF cartoon characters still need to behave like people. I will not drop my demand for logic just because the work-rate in New Japan or wherever is really high. Everyone is held to the same level of logic, unless you tell me you're an outright comedy promotion like Hoodlslam or whatever. Your stories can be as simple as the early days of EVOLVE or as complicated as CHIKARA, but they had all damn well better make sense.

New Japan is a fine example of a poor storyteller of a booker being saved by the work-rate of his talent. Yes, he gets credit for scouting and choosing said talent and creating the match-ups, but if the meta-stories (as opposed to the ones being told during the matches) suck, then he deserves to be blamed for that just as much as he deserves credit for the way he found and pushed a guy like Okada.
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Re: 2 Cents: Boneyard Match

Post by NWK2000 » Apr 5th, '20, 20:57

Big Red Machine wrote:
Apr 5th, '20, 17:21
NWK2000 wrote:
Apr 5th, '20, 13:43


Now, I say all of that as someone who can also appreciate 2002 Ring of Honor non nonsense technical wizardry. The "sports" vs "enternainment" debate this question poses brings me to another point There's a time and a place for everything, and when I tune in to WWE I expect complete fantasy, something more entertainment based . When I tune in to New Japan I expect high workrate. When I tune into AEW or Impact, I expect a little bit of both I think a problem with the wrestling community sometimes is that we struggle to put on specific thinking caps when we watch specific promotions. We aren't going to get a technical masterpiece from Goldberg, so why should I be mad when he does the thing he's done since 1997? Just an example obviously, but I think it's important as wrestling fans to temper our expectations to the shows we tune in to watch.
I mostly don't buy your caps argument for the following reasons:
1. The promotions themselves keep telling me that they're the best at everything. When I put on my LU cap it allows me to believe in magic. It doesn't mean that I lower my work-rate expectations for a big blow-off. Even in a place like CHIKARA, where the storyline payoff is the real thing, if that payoff is supposed to be the actual result of a match (I.e. someone going for a title), I expect the work-rate to be high. If it's going to be an emotional storyline moment afterwards then the match not being so great doesn't matter quite as much, but if you're going to put a lot of time into the match, I expect it to be good, no matter what. If what really matters is the big turn after the match and the workers involved aren't great and you can get away with only going nine minutes and not eighteen, then go nine and move it lower on the card.

2. Pro wrestling is still pro wrestling and the characters are still supposed to be actual people. Even early 90s WWF cartoon characters still need to behave like people. I will not drop my demand for logic just because the work-rate in New Japan or wherever is really high. Everyone is held to the same level of logic, unless you tell me you're an outright comedy promotion like Hoodlslam or whatever. Your stories can be as simple as the early days of EVOLVE or as complicated as CHIKARA, but they had all damn well better make sense.

New Japan is a fine example of a poor storyteller of a booker being saved by the work-rate of his talent. Yes, he gets credit for scouting and choosing said talent and creating the match-ups, but if the meta-stories (as opposed to the ones being told during the matches) suck, then he deserves to be blamed for that just as much as he deserves credit for the way he found and pushed a guy like Okada.
Maybe I phrased my point less delicately than I meant to. In WWE, which exists in some sort of inbetween, cartoonish realm of fantasy and reality, means that I expect a high workrate, but when outright fantasy happens, and it's clearly the best decision for the workers involved (IE: the highly produced, editted Boneyard Match vs a full, live match for a 50+ year old Undertaker) I'm going to appreciate the fact that they used fantasy to smoke and mirrors on what would've been a godawful match. Some exceptions can be made, but overall, I'd like my magical characters to have more fantastical matches that match that persona (I'm saying this anticipating you blow a gasket at the Funhouse match)

You're right on Goldberg, but what you neglect to realize is that the Goldberg that squashed people is what captured the fans' attention, including me, so why not give the fans as close to an approximation of that character as possible? That's why his run in 2003 was such a dud. Like, he wasn't the worst booked babyface in the world, but in WWE he was just like everyother babyface, selling, mounting a comeback, etc for all the big matches he ever had.
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Re: 2 Cents: Boneyard Match

Post by Big Red Machine » Apr 5th, '20, 21:59

NWK2000 wrote:
Apr 5th, '20, 20:57
Big Red Machine wrote:
Apr 5th, '20, 17:21
NWK2000 wrote:
Apr 5th, '20, 13:43


Now, I say all of that as someone who can also appreciate 2002 Ring of Honor non nonsense technical wizardry. The "sports" vs "enternainment" debate this question poses brings me to another point There's a time and a place for everything, and when I tune in to WWE I expect complete fantasy, something more entertainment based . When I tune in to New Japan I expect high workrate. When I tune into AEW or Impact, I expect a little bit of both I think a problem with the wrestling community sometimes is that we struggle to put on specific thinking caps when we watch specific promotions. We aren't going to get a technical masterpiece from Goldberg, so why should I be mad when he does the thing he's done since 1997? Just an example obviously, but I think it's important as wrestling fans to temper our expectations to the shows we tune in to watch.
I mostly don't buy your caps argument for the following reasons:
1. The promotions themselves keep telling me that they're the best at everything. When I put on my LU cap it allows me to believe in magic. It doesn't mean that I lower my work-rate expectations for a big blow-off. Even in a place like CHIKARA, where the storyline payoff is the real thing, if that payoff is supposed to be the actual result of a match (I.e. someone going for a title), I expect the work-rate to be high. If it's going to be an emotional storyline moment afterwards then the match not being so great doesn't matter quite as much, but if you're going to put a lot of time into the match, I expect it to be good, no matter what. If what really matters is the big turn after the match and the workers involved aren't great and you can get away with only going nine minutes and not eighteen, then go nine and move it lower on the card.

2. Pro wrestling is still pro wrestling and the characters are still supposed to be actual people. Even early 90s WWF cartoon characters still need to behave like people. I will not drop my demand for logic just because the work-rate in New Japan or wherever is really high. Everyone is held to the same level of logic, unless you tell me you're an outright comedy promotion like Hoodlslam or whatever. Your stories can be as simple as the early days of EVOLVE or as complicated as CHIKARA, but they had all damn well better make sense.

New Japan is a fine example of a poor storyteller of a booker being saved by the work-rate of his talent. Yes, he gets credit for scouting and choosing said talent and creating the match-ups, but if the meta-stories (as opposed to the ones being told during the matches) suck, then he deserves to be blamed for that just as much as he deserves credit for the way he found and pushed a guy like Okada.
Maybe I phrased my point less delicately than I meant to. In WWE, which exists in some sort of inbetween, cartoonish realm of fantasy and reality, means that I expect a high workrate, but when outright fantasy happens, and it's clearly the best decision for the workers involved (IE: the highly produced, editted Boneyard Match vs a full, live match for a 50+ year old Undertaker) I'm going to appreciate the fact that they used fantasy to smoke and mirrors on what would've been a godawful match. Some exceptions can be made, but overall, I'd like my magical characters to have more fantastical matches that match that persona (I'm saying this anticipating you blow a gasket at the Funhouse match)
But is a godawful smoke and mirrors match really an improvement over a godawful regular match? Both are godawful. If Taker can't do a real match, I'd rather just not see him. What did having this match do for anyone? This whole feud has made the OC look like sh*t, and Taker certainly didn't gain anything from it and arguably took a hit to his mystique by acknowledging the whole Michelle McCool thing.
NWK2000 wrote:
Apr 5th, '20, 13:43
You're right on Goldberg, but what you neglect to realize is that the Goldberg that squashed people is what captured the fans' attention, including me, so why not give the fans as close to an approximation of that character as possible? That's why his run in 2003 was such a dud. Like, he wasn't the worst booked babyface in the world, but in WWE he was just like everyother babyface, selling, mounting a comeback, etc for all the big matches he ever had.
The reason you don't "give the fans as close to an approximation of that character as possible" is because the character actually has to go somewhere. If he just squashes every, no matter their spot on the card, and just keeps squashing people and never faces anyone that turns out to be a real challenge then what is the character actually doing. He can be in a 911-esque role, sure, but if you're going to be competing for titles and being in storylines, you're going to need to face some read adversity at some point. If your protagonist never gets stuck in the proverbial tree in act one before you get him down in act three, then he's just a dude taking a leisurely stroll in a forest, and what kind of boring-ass story is that?
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Re: 2 Cents: Boneyard Match

Post by Thelone » Apr 6th, '20, 09:30

Big Red Machine wrote:
Apr 5th, '20, 21:59
But is a godawful smoke and mirrors match really an improvement over a godawful regular match? Both are godawful. If Taker can't do a real match, I'd rather just not see him. What did having this match do for anyone? This whole feud has made the OC look like sh*t, and Taker certainly didn't gain anything from it and arguably took a hit to his mystique by acknowledging the whole Michelle McCool thing.
I'm gonna say something that might sound silly and/or naïve, but guys like Brock/Goldberg/Taker (potentially Edge) don't work anymore because they're still in it for the money and nothing else. You don't gain much by beating them (or even be in a program in general) because it feels more like Vince put a higher number on the payout to take a dive (which again, I know sounds ridiculous) than because Goldberg or whoever "really wanted to work with X and elevate him".

Goldberg is just awful and this last run was a complete embarrassement, Taker should hang them up for good because it feels more sad and pathetic as time goes by, and Brock is just lazy because he can still have a relatively long match that isn't only suplexes and F5's.

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Re: 2 Cents: Boneyard Match

Post by Big Red Machine » Apr 6th, '20, 09:42

Thelone wrote:
Apr 6th, '20, 09:30
Big Red Machine wrote:
Apr 5th, '20, 21:59
But is a godawful smoke and mirrors match really an improvement over a godawful regular match? Both are godawful. If Taker can't do a real match, I'd rather just not see him. What did having this match do for anyone? This whole feud has made the OC look like sh*t, and Taker certainly didn't gain anything from it and arguably took a hit to his mystique by acknowledging the whole Michelle McCool thing.
I'm gonna say something that might sound silly and/or naïve, but guys like Brock/Goldberg/Taker (potentially Edge) don't work anymore because they're still in it for the money and nothing else. You don't gain much by beating them (or even be in a program in general) because it feels more like Vince put a higher number on the payout to take a dive (which again, I know sounds ridiculous) than because Goldberg or whoever "really wanted to work with X and elevate him".

It doesn't sound ridiculous at all. With Brock (and, in this recent case, Goldberg) in particular, I think it's a direct consequence of WWE's heavy-handed "we MUST create our next hand-picked top guy" mentality, where it was so clear to fans that Brock was being fattened up so he could be fed to first Roman and then Seth that their matches ceased to feel like they meant anything because it was all just filling time to get to Mania or SummerSlam where the title change to the already-anointed next top babyface would take place.

Taker's match could mean something if they weren't so protective of Taker. AJ beating Taker would have meant something.
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Re: 2 Cents: Boneyard Match

Post by KILLdozer » Apr 6th, '20, 10:31

Big Red Machine wrote:
Apr 6th, '20, 09:42
Thelone wrote:
Apr 6th, '20, 09:30
Big Red Machine wrote:
Apr 5th, '20, 21:59
But is a godawful smoke and mirrors match really an improvement over a godawful regular match? Both are godawful. If Taker can't do a real match, I'd rather just not see him. What did having this match do for anyone? This whole feud has made the OC look like sh*t, and Taker certainly didn't gain anything from it and arguably took a hit to his mystique by acknowledging the whole Michelle McCool thing.
I'm gonna say something that might sound silly and/or naïve, but guys like Brock/Goldberg/Taker (potentially Edge) don't work anymore because they're still in it for the money and nothing else. You don't gain much by beating them (or even be in a program in general) because it feels more like Vince put a higher number on the payout to take a dive (which again, I know sounds ridiculous) than because Goldberg or whoever "really wanted to work with X and elevate him".

It doesn't sound ridiculous at all. With Brock (and, in this recent case, Goldberg) in particular, I think it's a direct consequence of WWE's heavy-handed "we MUST create our next hand-picked top guy" mentality, where it was so clear to fans that Brock was being fattened up so he could be fed to first Roman and then Seth that their matches ceased to feel like they meant anything because it was all just filling time to get to Mania or SummerSlam where the title change to the already-anointed next top babyface would take place.

Taker's match could mean something if they weren't so protective of Taker. AJ beating Taker would have meant something.
"HAVE TO CREATE THE NEXT TOP GUY! HAVE TO! IDC IF YOU DON'T LIKE 'EM!"...is their worst decision ever. I mean, just how they go about it. And it's still not taken care of after 3 years.
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