2 Cents: Edge v Orton, Lucha Underground, and Taped Matches.

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cero2k
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2 Cents: Edge v Orton, Lucha Underground, and Taped Matches.

Post by cero2k » Jun 15th, '20, 12:26

There's a debate going on right now that kinda started with Meltzer saying that the Orton v Edge match is not rate-able like a match because it's not just HEAVILY edited, but it was a match that relied on doing several takes on each spot and picking and choosing, pretty much making a movie.

He brought up that he didn't used to rate LU because to him, while LU didn't do 'takes', they did edit out botches to make things look better, and that was already enough editing to rate as a 'match'.

Some counter arguments have been bringing up Smackdown or Impact that also have taped matches and sometimes, they do edit out some heavier botches out, but surely, those matches don't see the level of editing of the other two cases mentioned.

So i guess for the sake of debate, at what points do you think matches are out of your rating scopes?
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Re: 2 Cents: Edge v Orton, Lucha Underground, and Taped Matches.

Post by KILLdozer » Jun 15th, '20, 13:06

All the editing and pretaping in the world and Edge still tears his bicep or some shit though...
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Re: 2 Cents: Edge v Orton, Lucha Underground, and Taped Matches.

Post by Big Red Machine » Jun 15th, '20, 19:43

I think a match is a match, and you rate the finished product. A match that isn't edited is certainly a more impressive accomplishment for the same rating, but if you're going to say you won't rate edited matches then you might as well not rate anything you don't see live, because even cutting to a different camera at the moment of impact to hide any weak contact can be considered an edit. I know Prazak has said that while he doesn't take edit botched spots out of matches, he will absolutely take the camera angle that looks best. Does that count as "editing?"

I'm not the best at spotting these things (often because I'm not looking for them), but there wasn't a single moment in Edge vs. Orton where it leaped out at me that did multiple takes, or even that they took a time out to put a crash-pad down like some of the big crazy spots we've seen on NXT lately (the Air Raid Crash to the floor in Gargano vs. Ciampa and TVD's big elbow drop on Cole on the outside), so as far as I'm concerned there is no reason you can't rate this as a "match."
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Re: 2 Cents: Edge v Orton, Lucha Underground, and Taped Matches.

Post by cero2k » Jun 15th, '20, 20:18

Big Red Machine wrote:
Jun 15th, '20, 19:43
I know Prazak has said that while he doesn't take edit botched spots out of matches, he will absolutely take the camera angle that looks best. Does that count as "editing?"
that's just live production, not editing. You don't 'edit' a basketball game. I think editing implies 'post-production'.
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Re: 2 Cents: Edge v Orton, Lucha Underground, and Taped Matches.

Post by Big Red Machine » Jun 15th, '20, 22:03

cero2k wrote:
Jun 15th, '20, 20:18
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jun 15th, '20, 19:43
I know Prazak has said that while he doesn't take edit botched spots out of matches, he will absolutely take the camera angle that looks best. Does that count as "editing?"
that's just live production, not editing. You don't 'edit' a basketball game. I think editing implies 'post-production'.
No. This is being done after the match is taped, when he's putting the DVD together. He'll look at both angles, and use the one that looks better.

Live production would be more like cutting to a different camera on contact, but even that is being done with the intention of hiding weak contact. When they cut to a different camera during a basketball game, it's just to let you see better, not because they're worried that we might see someone lose control of the ball for a moment while dribbling.
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Re: 2 Cents: Edge v Orton, Lucha Underground, and Taped Matches.

Post by cero2k » Jun 16th, '20, 11:06

Big Red Machine wrote:
Jun 15th, '20, 22:03

No. This is being done after the match is taped, when he's putting the DVD together. He'll look at both angles, and use the one that looks better.

Live production would be more like cutting to a different camera on contact, but even that is being done with the intention of hiding weak contact. When they cut to a different camera during a basketball game, it's just to let you see better, not because they're worried that we might see someone lose control of the ball for a moment while dribbling.
Yeah, that would be editing in post-production, but that would really only apply to PWG and the like now a days, most other broadcast the show and do the camera changing live. I still wouldn't go as far as comparing that to doing retakes, you're still constrained to whatever footage you have and however the match went
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Re: 2 Cents: Edge v Orton, Lucha Underground, and Taped Matches.

Post by Big Red Machine » Jun 16th, '20, 11:25

cero2k wrote:
Jun 16th, '20, 11:06
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jun 15th, '20, 22:03

No. This is being done after the match is taped, when he's putting the DVD together. He'll look at both angles, and use the one that looks better.

Live production would be more like cutting to a different camera on contact, but even that is being done with the intention of hiding weak contact. When they cut to a different camera during a basketball game, it's just to let you see better, not because they're worried that we might see someone lose control of the ball for a moment while dribbling.
Yeah, that would be editing in post-production, but that would really only apply to PWG and the like now a days, most other broadcast the show and do the camera changing live. I still wouldn't go as far as comparing that to doing retakes, you're still constrained to whatever footage you have and however the match went
They're certainly different levels, but I think there's a point of reductio ad infinitum here. We know botches have been edited out of matches on Smackdown, Impact, and the Mae Young Classic, and I'd assume it happens on ROH, MLW, Dark, and many others. Gabe used to cut whole matches from ROH DVDs if he wasn't happy with them.

I guess what I'm saying is that if you're evaluating a finished product, then you can't really fault a product for being a finished product. Is an excellent match without retakes a greater feat? Yes. But in order to do the retakes, the wrestlers are also putting more work in than otherwise would. Are you going to fault them for that? There is a lot more that goes into a match than just perfect execution, and to deny these guys acknowledgement for that seems unfair to me.
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