Cero Reviews NJPW New Japan Cup 2020, Day 8

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cero2k
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Cero Reviews NJPW New Japan Cup 2020, Day 8

Post by cero2k » Jul 3rd, '20, 16:58

NJPW New Japan Cup 2020, Day 8
July 3rd, 2020
Korakuen Hall, Tokyo, Japan

Suzuki-Gun (Minoru Suzuki, Zack Sabre Jr, Taichi, & El Desperado) vs HIroshi Tanahshi, Kota Ibushi, Yuji Nagata, & Gabriel Kidd - 7/10
This was the Zack Sabre show, dude decimated Tanahashi's leg and went toe-to-toe with Ibushi before having to tag out. This was all to build Tekkers vs Aces in a proper tag environment. Nagata and Suzuki had a go at each other, and at the end, Kidd had a nice little hope segment against Suzuki and Desperado, who won with Pinche Loco. Fun stuff, I'll never get tired of Suzuki and Sabre torturing people.

Post-match - Taichi and Tana had a face off and Sabre worked on Ibushi's leg some more.

CHAOS (Tomohiro Ishii, Hirooki Goto, & SHO) vs Los Ingobernables de Japon (Tetsuya Naito, Shingo Takagi, BUSHI) - 6/10
Another match focused 99% on building a match for Osaka, SHO and Shingo had two segments in this match. Ishii was cut off from his corner for a while, Goto felt irrelevant in this match, and BUSHI was there to give SHO the win with the Shock Arrow. Ok stuff, just nothing new.

Post-match - SHO challenged Shingo for the NEVER title and Speared him.

Master Wato Debut - We got a different version of the Grand Master video, this time showing the now former Hirai Kawato, in all of his geeky glory. He just looked weird in the video.

Wato them walked out, he looked so much better here, he gve me HUGE vibes of Yuma Aoyagi. He just said that Master Wato has come to NJPW. Then, Douki jumped him from behind and beat him up and Wato didn't do shit. Talk about a shitty debut, but it builds for a debut match next week.

New Japan Cup Semifinal Match
EVIL vs SANADA - 8.5/10
These two have a low key rivalry going all the way back to last year's New Japan Cup, when SANADA started to ascend, while EVIL became irrelevant in LIJ and stopped being a teammate, they had their heated match at the G1 where EVIL got his frustrations out and won the match. Things seemed ok from there on, but EVIL as still just the 3rd guy in the NEVER 6-Man champs, while SANADA was out there fighting for the British Heavyweight title and Naito was winning double titles and Hiromu and Shingo winning singles titles. Months later, EVIL came in to the New Japan Cup with a chip on his shoulder and a far more brutal zero-fucks-given approach to winning the Cup.

This match saw a SANADA that wanted to play it fair and let the best man win. EVIL came in ready to win it all no matter what, and that was SANADA's downfall. EVIL used chairs early on to gain advantage, but SANADA still persevered, EVIL went after SANADA's injured neck (after a really scary botched Slice Bread #2) with another chair spot, but SANADA kept coming, and so EVIL relied on low blowing SANADA twice to finally get the EIE in and win. EVIL is a piece of shit friend and everything still screams for SANADA to leave LIJ, and I do wonder if EVIL will become another thorn in SANADA, now that it's 0-2.

I really didn't see this coming. I played around the idea of Nagata beating Suzuki before the tournament started, but SANADA losing to EVIL again never really crossed my mind.

New Japan Cup Semifinal Match
Kazuchika Okada vs Hiromu Takahashi - 9/10
This saw less of a cocky Okada (compared to the previous matches), and just like he put over Hiromu in yesterday's promo, he really did treat Hiromu as someone he'd take seriously. Hiromu's whole thing was to put the Jr. Heavyweight division on top, even beating "the toughest heavyweight" in the process, so he now came in ready to go after Okada.

The match was kinda followed a similar plan to what both Okada and Hiromu had been doing in the sense that Okada was stronger first and Hiromu was worked on, then Hiromu made a comeback and gave Okada some trouble, and oh boy, was he in trouble, Hiromu got a TON of really great near falls, Okada kicked out of the Dynamite Plunger, a Rainmaker, the Time Bomb, and escaped the D. Around this point, I really thought that Hiromu could be winning the match, but then the Rainmaker woke up, he started locking the Anaconda Vice and hitting Tombstones and Rainmakers, and at the end, unceremoniously, Okada choked out Hiromu with the Vice.

My only gripe with this match was that Okada working over Hiromu felt really long to me, one of those when you remember there's no crowd to cheer Hiromu back, so I'd say, take away from 5 minutes and you'd have a classic in your hands.

Post-match - Hiromu cried his way to the back. Okada put Hiromu over, and said that EVIL is next, and then Naito.

OVERALL THOUGHTS
It's a four match show and two of them were tag matches to build up the Osaka card, but it was great nonetheless. The last two matches were top level New Japan stuff, the latter would had been in the top matches of the year if not for the lack of crowds.

Finals are gonna be Okada vs EVIL, which I have to imagine are easy to call who wins here. I'm not exactly hyped to go back to Okada vs Naito so soon, especially because there is a big possibility that Okada wins the titles, but I just don't see EVIL vs Naito main eventing Osaka.

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Re: Cero Reviews NJPW New Japan Cup 2020, Day 8

Post by Big Red Machine » Jul 5th, '20, 09:23

cero2k wrote:
Jul 3rd, '20, 16:58

These two have a low key rivalry going all the way back to last year's New Japan Cup, when SANADA started to ascend, while EVIL became irrelevant in LIJ and stopped being a teammate, they had their heated match at the G1 where EVIL got his frustrations out and won the match. Things seemed ok from there on, but EVIL as still just the 3rd guy in the NEVER 6-Man champs, while SANADA was out there fighting for the British Heavyweight title and Naito was winning double titles and Hiromu and Shingo winning singles titles. Months later, EVIL came in to the New Japan Cup with a chip on his shoulder and a far more brutal zero-fucks-given approach to winning the Cup.
You're making up head-canon. EVIL has done nothing in this tournament that he hasn't done in 90% of his matches over the past few years. The idea that he came into this tournament with a "chip on his shoulder" is not borne out by anything. And if I missed a promo about this somewhere then it's still on EVIL to actually do something to show the difference in his work, because stories require you to show, not just tell.

And you're head-canon isn't even consistent. In the other thread you're saying that Sanada is the odd man out because he's the only one without a title, but here you're saying that Sanada challenging for the RevPro belt brought more glory and prestige to LIJ than EVIL actually having a New Japan championship and portraying EVIL as the odd man out.
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Re: Cero Reviews NJPW New Japan Cup 2020, Day 8

Post by cero2k » Jul 5th, '20, 21:25

Big Red Machine wrote:
Jul 5th, '20, 09:23

You're making up head-canon. EVIL has done nothing in this tournament that he hasn't done in 90% of his matches over the past few years. The idea that he came into this tournament with a "chip on his shoulder" is not borne out by anything. And if I missed a promo about this somewhere then it's still on EVIL to actually do something to show the difference in his work, because stories require you to show, not just tell.

And you're head-canon isn't even consistent. In the other thread you're saying that Sanada is the odd man out because he's the only one without a title, but here you're saying that Sanada challenging for the RevPro belt brought more glory and prestige to LIJ than EVIL actually having a New Japan championship and portraying EVIL as the odd man out.
i'm not making up anything, i'm just paying attention and seeking out the promos. it is clear that EVIL is acting differently, it's in the promos, it's in his actions, and it's been boiling since last year.

It's not about bringing prestige to LIJ. SANADA is in a better position wrestling for the major championship of a promotion, in his own singles match at wrestle kingdom, than EVIL in the 6-man. Singles heavyweight title > 6-man title, but 6-man title > no title at all. There's no inconsistency and it's straight forward.

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Re: Cero Reviews NJPW New Japan Cup 2020, Day 8

Post by Big Red Machine » Jul 5th, '20, 22:15

cero2k wrote:
Jul 5th, '20, 21:25
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jul 5th, '20, 09:23

You're making up head-canon. EVIL has done nothing in this tournament that he hasn't done in 90% of his matches over the past few years. The idea that he came into this tournament with a "chip on his shoulder" is not borne out by anything. And if I missed a promo about this somewhere then it's still on EVIL to actually do something to show the difference in his work, because stories require you to show, not just tell.

And you're head-canon isn't even consistent. In the other thread you're saying that Sanada is the odd man out because he's the only one without a title, but here you're saying that Sanada challenging for the RevPro belt brought more glory and prestige to LIJ than EVIL actually having a New Japan championship and portraying EVIL as the odd man out.
i'm not making up anything, i'm just paying attention and seeking out the promos. it is clear that EVIL is acting differently, it's in the promos, it's in his actions, and it's been boiling since last year.

It's not about bringing prestige to LIJ. SANADA is in a better position wrestling for the major championship of a promotion, in his own singles match at wrestle kingdom, than EVIL in the 6-man. Singles heavyweight title > 6-man title, but 6-man title > no title at all. There's no inconsistency and it's straight forward.
Fans shouldn't have to seek out promos. And if EVIL is acting differently, he should be doing it in the ring, too, especially if you're not doing promos on the show. Furthermore, you are the only person I have found who seems to be saying this. That doesn't mean your wrong... but the preponderance of the evidence is against you. Remember last year when Sanada wouldn't do the pose with Naito during their G1 tag matches? It didn't lead to sh*t. Just like the various issues within Bullet Club in 2015 and 2016 didn't lead to sh*t. Or with Suzuki-Gun in BOSJ in that TAKA vs. Kanemaru match where they kept kicking each other in the nuts. Or any time Yano cheats to beat a member of CHAOS. Things that should have been bigger issues have not led to any sort of tension the next day, never mind a break-up, in New Japan.

There is absolutely an inconsistency. You said that the storyline was pointing towards an issue between Sanada and the rest of LIJ because he's the only guy without a title and because "he was the only one to lose that night" (at WrestleKingdom). That inherently means that he is the one not pulling his weight in the group. If the storyline is that Sanada is the one not pulling his weight, how can EVIL feel himself to be in a lesser position? Sanada is not in a better position because he didn't win a title and EVIL did. He might have been in a higher spot that one night, but since then, EVIL is in the higher spot because he has a title and Sanada doesn't.
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Re: Cero Reviews NJPW New Japan Cup 2020, Day 8

Post by cero2k » Jul 9th, '20, 09:02

Big Red Machine wrote:
Jul 5th, '20, 22:15

Fans shouldn't have to seek out promos. And if EVIL is acting differently, he should be doing it in the ring, too, especially if you're not doing promos on the show. Furthermore, you are the only person I have found who seems to be saying this. That doesn't mean your wrong... but the preponderance of the evidence is against you. Remember last year when Sanada wouldn't do the pose with Naito during their G1 tag matches? It didn't lead to sh*t. Just like the various issues within Bullet Club in 2015 and 2016 didn't lead to sh*t. Or with Suzuki-Gun in BOSJ in that TAKA vs. Kanemaru match where they kept kicking each other in the nuts. Or any time Yano cheats to beat a member of CHAOS. Things that should have been bigger issues have not led to any sort of tension the next day, never mind a break-up, in New Japan.
This just sounds like you want to do as little effort as possible with instant gratification. I don't blame you, we've been culturally trained to be impatient. I don't think it's much to ask of a fan to hope that they will go check out the post-match promos, especially from the foreign fan, if they want to go deeper into the promotions stories. If people just want top level matches, then just watch the matches, if one wants the full experience, yeah, go out of one's way to learn. Everyone wants everything handed to them and to be led by the hand.
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jul 5th, '20, 22:15
There is absolutely an inconsistency. You said that the storyline was pointing towards an issue between Sanada and the rest of LIJ because he's the only guy without a title and because "he was the only one to lose that night" (at WrestleKingdom). That inherently means that he is the one not pulling his weight in the group. If the storyline is that Sanada is the one not pulling his weight, how can EVIL feel himself to be in a lesser position? Sanada is not in a better position because he didn't win a title and EVIL did. He might have been in a higher spot that one night, but since then, EVIL is in the higher spot because he has a title and Sanada doesn't.
Wait, so two completely distinct individuals can't have two separate thoughts and stories based on the same situation? You're saying that EVIL is not allowed to feel less because SANADA already has another thing going on? Is your wrestling so one-dimensional that EVIL can't have certain thoughts about being lesser because of a win/loss record?
I think you're the one making your own story. In no way does SANADA have a problem with LIJ, nor LIJ with him, nor they think he's not pulling their weight (zero idea where this even comes from).

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Re: Cero Reviews NJPW New Japan Cup 2020, Day 8

Post by Big Red Machine » Jul 9th, '20, 15:55

cero2k wrote:
Jul 9th, '20, 09:02
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jul 5th, '20, 22:15

Fans shouldn't have to seek out promos. And if EVIL is acting differently, he should be doing it in the ring, too, especially if you're not doing promos on the show. Furthermore, you are the only person I have found who seems to be saying this. That doesn't mean your wrong... but the preponderance of the evidence is against you. Remember last year when Sanada wouldn't do the pose with Naito during their G1 tag matches? It didn't lead to sh*t. Just like the various issues within Bullet Club in 2015 and 2016 didn't lead to sh*t. Or with Suzuki-Gun in BOSJ in that TAKA vs. Kanemaru match where they kept kicking each other in the nuts. Or any time Yano cheats to beat a member of CHAOS. Things that should have been bigger issues have not led to any sort of tension the next day, never mind a break-up, in New Japan.
This just sounds like you want to do as little effort as possible with instant gratification. I don't blame you, we've been culturally trained to be impatient. I don't think it's much to ask of a fan to hope that they will go check out the post-match promos, especially from the foreign fan, if they want to go deeper into the promotions stories. If people just want top level matches, then just watch the matches, if one wants the full experience, yeah, go out of one's way to learn. Everyone wants everything handed to them and to be led by the hand.
If something is important to the storyline, it's the responsibility of the promotion to put it on the main outlet. To quote the great Chuck Sonnenberg, "you don't get credit for it if you don't put it in the movie." These interviews are basically an extended cut. they're something I have to go out of my way to seek out... but expecting fans to do that is not fair because viewership time is earned. Doing that is a formula for doing exactly what AEW's issues were where they would put sh*t on Dark or Being The Elite and only a fraction of the audience would watch it, and on one would explain it during the main show.
If they want to make sure that fans understand the storyline and these post-show promos are part of the storyline, just put the post-show press conferences on the end of the show! Every other promotion makes sure that they get important information to you on the main product. It's the reason ROH used to put the video wires on each DVD, it's why WWE will put up relevant Tweets on the screen, and why everyone does video packages. wXw stopped running Shotgun because keeping the big-show stuff separate from the build-up segments wasn't working.
This has nothing to do with being "impatient;" it's about only having so many hours in my day, during which I have to work, eat, and have other things I might want to do for entertainment. That doesn't mean I don't want to understand the storylines, but it does mean that the reality of the situation is that I'm not going to remember to go to NJPW's YouTube page the day after a show because I'm probably busy watching something else. It also creates an issue for people like me who might be watching the shows a few days behind but don't want to have anything spoiled by going to the YouTube page.

The idea that a promotion shouldn't be promoting "the full experience" for everyone is ridiculous. A fan who is only interested in watching matches will be easily lured away by some other promotion once they decide they like those matches better. It's storyline investment that people around.
cero2k wrote:
Jul 9th, '20, 09:02
Big Red Machine wrote:
Jul 5th, '20, 22:15
There is absolutely an inconsistency. You said that the storyline was pointing towards an issue between Sanada and the rest of LIJ because he's the only guy without a title and because "he was the only one to lose that night" (at WrestleKingdom). That inherently means that he is the one not pulling his weight in the group. If the storyline is that Sanada is the one not pulling his weight, how can EVIL feel himself to be in a lesser position? Sanada is not in a better position because he didn't win a title and EVIL did. He might have been in a higher spot that one night, but since then, EVIL is in the higher spot because he has a title and Sanada doesn't.
Wait, so two completely distinct individuals can't have two separate thoughts and stories based on the same situation? You're saying that EVIL is not allowed to feel less because SANADA already has another thing going on? Is your wrestling so one-dimensional that EVIL can't have certain thoughts about being lesser because of a win/loss record?
They can... but one of those situations ended in early January. EVIL can certainly have thoughts about feeling lesser because of a win/loss record... but only if his record actually is worse than Sanada's!. Going into their match, EVIL was 18-6 in 2020, while Sanada was 16-8. In singles matches, Sanada was 3-2, while EVIL was 3-1. Why would he be feeling lesser than Sanada?
cero2k wrote:
Jul 9th, '20, 09:02
I think you're the one making your own story. In no way does SANADA have a problem with LIJ, nor LIJ with him, nor they think he's not pulling their weight (zero idea where this even comes from).
I'm making things up? You don't know where this comes from?
Checkmate.
viewtopic.php?f=71&t=23003#p118429



EC asked if this was possible and you said
cero2k wrote: that's what everything was pointing to after Wrestle Kingdom,
so it's either coming from you or from Gedo.
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