AEW Double or Nothing 2020
May 23, 2020
Jacksonville, FL

Show started with a 'thank you' video to first responders and In Memoriam for Shad Gaspard RIP.

Opening Video - Good, overall recap of all things going on tonight.

Dan Lambert is ringside as a fan, PLEASE let him cut promos!!

Casino Ladder Match Promos - Joey Janela was good. Kip Sabian was great, I like how his character is molding, Havoc however wasn't all that good. Chris Daniels was great talking in behalf of Kaz and Sky. Best Friends had to explain OC how a ladder match works.

Casino Ladder Match
Frankie Kazarian vs Scorpio Sky vs Darby Allin vs Joey Janela vs Kip Sabian w/Penelope Ford & Jimmy Havoc vs Colt Cabana vs Orange Cassidy vs Luchasaurus vs Brian Cage w/Taz - 7.5/10
This has Aztec Warfare style entry, and it just turns out that two starting are SCU members, meaning whoever is 3rd has to go 2-on-1 naturally. Fortunately for Sabian, Havoc was there to even out the odds. He was there to take bumps, but it helps.
Early on, Darby took a hell of a bump, from the top of the tallest ladder, trying to Skateboard Stomp Kaz on a ladder bridge, but Kaz moved away and Darby went straight down, crushing his knees. Darby sold that knee for the rest of the match.
OC came out and went to commentary table to confirm what the match was about. The commentary told him off and OC was annoyed he had to put effort tonight.

Both Janela and Luchasaurus got to take out everyone during their entrances, the latter looking way stronger tho.
Brian Cage came out and broke a ladder with his bare hands. Seems like Taz will be managing him, and in a weird way, Taz now looks like a thicker version of Paul Ellering.

Cage took out everyone one-by-one until everyone ganged up on him, taken out, and buried undernead ladders and barricades and one of those big prop poker chips.

Later in the match, OC took out both Sabian and Penelope, but was attacked by Havoc, so Best Friends came to take out Havoc. He then tried to chokeslam Luchasaurus, but instead got chokeslamed by Marko Stunt (with the Luchasaurus assist). OC then took a DVD by Janela, from the apron onto the pile of garbage that was burying Cage. Poor Cage.
Cage eventually powered up, broke up from the gutter and had a great big lads fight with Luchasaurus. Well, if the Big Lads and the X-Division had an Amalgam comic book series. Cage hit a crazy powerbomb on Luchasaurus, he's a Machine!

Finish saw Cage deliver a Body Press Slam on Darby, on a ladder, and won with no opposition. This was fun, it started slow, but it eventually became the usual spotfest that multi-man ladder matches are.

MJF w/Wardlow vs Jungle Boy - 8/10
Aside from the athletism, this was a total old school heel vs babyface match, with a cocky heel that has to rely on cheating and lies when the babyface starts to gain momentum. MJF worked over Jungle Boy's arm throughout the match, going for all type of shots, and it was the arm that he would also strike whenever he needed to cut off his momentum.
There was a really scary spot with Jungle Boy hit a Poisonrana on MJF on the apron and MJF just landed crown-first. The rest was mostly MJF fighting from underneath and getting near falls until MJF got what looked like an European Clutch for the win.

Inaugural TNT Championship Match
"The American Nightmare" Cody w/Arn Anderson vs "The Murderhawk" Lance Archer w/Jake "The Snake" Roberts - 7.5/10
Archer actually hit the Blackout as the first move, but Cody managed to roll out and escape Archer. The match was mostly Archer beating the shit out of Cody, tossing him around the ring and outside the ring, all until eventually, Archer hurt his ribs and Cody went after them.

There was a point in the match that Jake and Arn started messing around and it kinda got boring, but then they got ejected. Jake tried to come back, but Mike Tyson told him off, and as a side note, Tyson looks amazing, he's jacked for his age.

Cody hit two CrossRhodes for the win. It was a good match, much less drama than the usual Cody match.

Big Swole getting in Archer's face was my favorite thing.

Britt Baker Update - Dr. Samson tells us that Baker has a fracture from last Dynamite and that she will update everyone on Dynamite. Good quick update, didn't take time off from the show, and Samson told us that the injury isn't as bad as the patient. Not professional doc, not professional.

Kris Statlander vs Penelope Ford w/Kip Sabian - 6.5/10
Another ok match, Ford was selling her spot from the ladder match, so even in defeat, she looked really strong. Statlander won with the Big Bang Theory.
Only notable spot was Statlander doing a Tope dive and almost impaling darting the barricade with her head.

Dustin Rhodes vs Shawn Spears - 2/10
This was a comedy skit. Spears came out in a suit, said that Rhodes wasn't coming out because he was retired, and then Rhodes actually came out, beat him up, reveal he had underwear with Tully Blanchard's face in the crotch like if it was funny, but it's not, I'd love a pair of trunks with each of the Horsemen's faces on them.

ALL OUT takes place September 5th.

Hana Kimura Tribute - We got a nice little tribute for Hana, Excalibur told us all to be nice to each other.

Shida vs Rose Build-up Video - Love it. I loved that Shida was secure about herself saying that she's fought Aja Kong so matter wasn't scary for her, she also said that the Joshi style is a never give up style. Rose said that she had enough time to rest and build up anger, and Shida would be the sacrificial lamb. The announcer team then broke down the odds for each women.

AEW Women's Championship No DQ, No Countout Match
"The Native Beast" Nyla Rose (C) vs Hikaru Shida - 8.5/10
Hikaru Shida, sans the white t-shirt, was dressed as the Shida version of Tifa. I've been playing FF7 Remake, and this was perfect timing Shida. Nyla came out with Shida's kendo stick.

I also have to give some credit to Shida, who played her part here as if this was a long running feud. Her face and mannerisms were perfect, taking Rose extremely serious. She was a fighter, a woman with one goal.

The match was the fired up babyface vs the powerhouse heel. It was somewhat back and forward, both Rose and Shida had a long run with momentum before they started going for near falls. Some highlights was Shida going through two tables while Rose getting slammed on the token chips, one of which was from a running knee from Shida while she screamed her lungs out.

Finish saw Shida break the kendo stick on Rose's head and deliver the running knee for the win. Great heartfelt ending. Seeing Emi Sakura cry on twitter over it made me so happy for Shida and her teacher.
Announcing table speech - Not really a speech, but not sure how to call it. All three talked about trying to bring a little entertainment to a fanbase that is having a hard time this week and this year.

Moxley vs Lee Build-up Video - Perfect recap of the events leading up. I'm one to say that I think it makes 150% sense that Brodie Lee took a title shot so early, if he's the leader of a cult and has so much power behind him, why would he wait to go chase the title? A cult leader is not one to wait around for rankings whether he has earned them or not.

AEW World Championship Match
Jon Moxley (C) vs Mr. Brodie Lee - 8/10
We had a barricade of security in the ring, separating Lee and Mox. It takes a lot of space in the ring for some of the entrance antics, but I loved the idea of separating wrestlers like this before big title matches. Also need to mention that Brodie Lee is the 'Self-Proclaimed World Champion', weeks after Moose has been doing it. AEW is copying Impact.

This match was kinda weird for me at first, it felt like a combination of many styles, like it started at 60mph with dives and all, almost like the usual WWE match that just does dives for no reason, but then it became a Puro striking battle in the middle of the ring, and then these two went back to their indie crash wrestling, brawling all over the place and putting each other through wood.

Talking about wood, they did the Bam Bam vs Tazz spot, with Mox hitting the Paradigm Shift THROUGH the entrance ramp. Brodie Lee came out all bloody from it. As soon as they got in the ring, Mox hit a second PS and Lee kicked out at 1! a 3rd one and only got a two count! Mox locked in a hell of a Rear Naked and choked out Lee, who didn't tap out. Just like Callihan did a month ago....hmmm.....

Anyway, good match, but there was a lot of foreign objects used and a lot of time around the ring, I'm guessing they didn't want to do two matches back-to-back with the same stips, but then they still did the same gimmick anyway. Aside from the ramp spot, I thought the weapon stuff was better in the Shida vs Rose match. This went only one minute less than Shida vs Rose, but it somehow feels way more underwhelming.

Action Figure Commercial - They have 25 points of articulation!

Elite vs Inner Circle Build-up Video - Aewsome! The showed how the feud goes all the way back to the inception of AEW, the signing of Jericho, and the tension between the Elite's members. There was a line that Omega said about mat not being part of the Elite, but he had the same mindset of trying to change the industry, and I liked this line, it's something that Hardy had ever since the first Final Deletion.

Stadium Stampede Match
The Elite (Kenny Omega, The Young Bucks, Hangman Page, & Matt Hardy) vs The Inner Circle (Chris Jericho, Proud n Powerful, Sammy Guevara, & Jake Hager) - 10/10!
I loved this whole thing. I've heard a lot of comparisons with all the cinematic stuff that has been coming out, but in reality, this was just a Falls Count Anywhere match between two 5-man teams. The spots taken were not faked with bad editing, this wasn't a 'magic fight' in a fake graveyard, and most than all, it wasn't a backstage brawl that kept repeating the same spots over and over and over. This match had a perfectly constructed movie climax formula, with the initial brawl, the heat section, the missing babyface evening out the odds, and then, one-by-one, the babyfaces eliminating the heels out of the match, leading up to the big ending.

I'm not going to describe what happened because the truth is, you need to go out and personally watch this thing. it's a 30+ minute match. I had TONS of fun watching this match, I loved the theatrics of the cheerleaders, the horse, and so on.

Having said all that, it wasn't better than Minoru Suzuki vs Sanshiro Takagi at the Tokyo Dome.

OVERALL THOUGHTS
A great show by AEW, it was fun and exciting. The in-ring action was good, I'd say the only stuff that I struggled to get through was both Rhodes' matches, but they were still not exactly bad. As the announcers said, they're trying to entertain, and I have to admit that I was entertained.

cero2k wrote: ↑May 24th, '20, 15:35
Stadium Stampede Match
The Elite (Kenny Omega, The Young Bucks, Hangman Page, & Matt Hardy) vs The Inner Circle (Chris Jericho, Proud n Powerful, Sammy Guevara, & Jake Hager) - 10/10!
I loved this whole thing. I've heard a lot of comparisons with all the cinematic stuff that has been coming out, but in reality, this was just a Falls Count Anywhere match between two 5-man teams. The spots taken were not faked with bad editing, this wasn't a 'magic fight'

I agree that it wasn't a cinematic, but to say it wasn't magic is more than a little silly when you had Matt Hardy transofrming underwater and drone-vision and so forth.

Also, I disagree that it was a fight. It was an extended comedy sketch. If it was a fight, they would have been trying to win, not doing goofy comedy sh*t.

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑May 25th, '20, 10:08
I agree that it wasn't a cinematic, but to say it wasn't magic is more than a little silly when you had Matt Hardy transofrming underwater and drone-vision and so forth.

Also, I disagree that it was a fight. It was an extended comedy sketch. If it was a fight, they would have been trying to win, not doing goofy comedy sh*t.

drone vision is not really magic, it's just a matter of asking for the footage. I'll give you Matt Hardy's wardrobe change as being magical, but that's really it and it's just a joke, it's not a serious magical battle.

I don't know what you mean by not trying to win, there's TONS of near falls and all the attacks are done for the sake of hurting the opponent, be it physically or psychologically.

10/10 for the main event?
No. Surely not.

But I am always fascinated when you and BRM do the same show review. I do find myself coming down on BRM’s side a lot more in terms of review.

BRM watches everything with a ring, and these days I am far more of a casual. But while we tune in to AEW, we’re not as enamoured with it as you are.
Which reinforces the point I have always made about AEW.

You Cero (and I do mean this with no disrespect), are one of those AEW fans that is “for the sort of people who like that kind of wrestling show this is the kind of wrestling show those people like” and therefore, for you, they can almost do no wrong. Which is exactly the fan base AEW inspires. It’s a less hardcore ECW style cult following, but for me, they’re going to struggle to build on that fan base and grab the casual, based on their current presentation.

XIV wrote: ↑May 25th, '20, 14:34 10/10 for the main event?
No. Surely not.

But I am always fascinated when you and BRM do the same show review. I do find myself coming down on BRM’s side a lot more in terms of review.

BRM watches everything with a ring, and these days I am far more of a casual. But while we tune in to AEW, we’re not as enamoured with it as you are.
Which reinforces the point I have always made about AEW.

You Cero (and I do mean this with no disrespect), are one of those AEW fans that is “for the sort of people who like that kind of wrestling show this is the kind of wrestling show those people like” and therefore, for you, they can almost do no wrong. Which is exactly the fan base AEW inspires. It’s a less hardcore ECW style cult following, but for me, they’re going to struggle to build on that fan base and grab the casual, based on their current presentation.

To me the main aspect when I review, at least 5 out of the 10 points, is whether I enjoy what i'm watching. I don't care if Gulak and Danielson can have a 30 minute grapplefuck match with zero rules broken, if I'm bored out of my ass than it's not a good match. Enjoying the product is the number one thing on whether it deserves a good rating.

If I watch a match that takes me to a place that I don't start to wonder about magic, or start counting how many seconds have been spent outside the ring, or whether it's exposing the business, or makes me cringe about it being a corporate circlejerk, then that's half of the battle won. I keep repeating myself, but what's the point of watching something we don't enjoy if we're not even getting paid? I don't wanna be worried about protecting a fake sport or the laws of physics for that matter, I just wanna have fun and see cool personalities clash.

And it's not even about AEW, they're not even close to my top 3 promotions, but it's a product that I enjoy when I watch it.

cero2k wrote: ↑May 25th, '20, 13:42

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑May 25th, '20, 10:08
I agree that it wasn't a cinematic, but to say it wasn't magic is more than a little silly when you had Matt Hardy transofrming underwater and drone-vision and so forth.

Also, I disagree that it was a fight. It was an extended comedy sketch. If it was a fight, they would have been trying to win, not doing goofy comedy sh*t.

drone vision is not really magic, it's just a matter of asking for the footage. I'll give you Matt Hardy's wardrobe change as being magical, but that's really it and it's just a joke, it's not a serious magical battle.

You can't "ask for the footage" of something we are told is happening live.

cero2k wrote: ↑May 25th, '20, 13:42 I don't know what you mean by not trying to win, there's TONS of near falls and all the attacks are done for the sake of hurting the opponent, be it physically or psychologically.

There were absolutely not "tons of nearfalls" in this match, especially given its length.
- Matt Jackson gives Sammy Guevara at least fifty straight suplexes... and then does a f*cking dance instead of trying to pin him, all to set up a spot where he is given a non-existent penalty and then superkicks the referee. That's not trying to win.
- Adam Page and Kenny Omega work together and take out Jake Hager. Do they pin him afterwards? No. They have a drink together and then walk off. That's not trying to win.
- Matt Hardy has Santana trapped in an ice chest and has Ortiz tied to a chair, defenseless. Does he lock on a submission hold and try to choke him out for the victory? No. He just leaves the area. That's not trying to win.
- Nick hits his big dive onto Chris Jericho and Jericho is out cold. Do they try to pin him? No. They draw a line on him, then they walk away.
- Adam Page shows up on a f*cking horse, so Sammy Guevara runs away from him. Does Page ride around on his horse, trying to trample is enemies to death? No. He goes and chases after the guy who ran away, negating his team's five-on-four advantage. That's not trying to win (and why even show up on the f*cking horse in the first place if you weren't going to use it for military purposes?). Ditto for when Jake Hager did the same thing later, leaving a situation where his team had the man advantage to go look for the member of the opposing team who wasn't fighting.

Sure, they went for some pinfalls, but for so many of the spots that made you think "that's it, this guy is out," they just walked away afterwards instead of going for the win, for no other reason than that wasn't the scripted finish.

cero2k wrote: ↑May 25th, '20, 14:59

XIV wrote: ↑May 25th, '20, 14:34 10/10 for the main event?
No. Surely not.

But I am always fascinated when you and BRM do the same show review. I do find myself coming down on BRM’s side a lot more in terms of review.

BRM watches everything with a ring, and these days I am far more of a casual. But while we tune in to AEW, we’re not as enamoured with it as you are.
Which reinforces the point I have always made about AEW.

You Cero (and I do mean this with no disrespect), are one of those AEW fans that is “for the sort of people who like that kind of wrestling show this is the kind of wrestling show those people like” and therefore, for you, they can almost do no wrong. Which is exactly the fan base AEW inspires. It’s a less hardcore ECW style cult following, but for me, they’re going to struggle to build on that fan base and grab the casual, based on their current presentation.

To me the main aspect when I review, at least 5 out of the 10 points, is whether I enjoy what i'm watching. I don't care if Gulak and Danielson can have a 30 minute grapplefuck match with zero rules broken, if I'm bored out of my ass than it's not a good match. Enjoying the product is the number one thing on whether it deserves a good rating.

If I watch a match that takes me to a place that I don't start to wonder about magic, or start counting how many seconds have been spent outside the ring, or whether it's exposing the business, or makes me cringe about it being a corporate circlejerk, then that's half of the battle won. I keep repeating myself, but what's the point of watching something we don't enjoy if we're not even getting paid? I don't wanna be worried about protecting a fake sport or the laws of physics for that matter, I just wanna have fun and see cool personalities clash.

And it's not even about AEW, they're not even close to my top 3 promotions, but it's a product that I enjoy when I watch it.

It's not about "exposing the business" to me in the traditional sense so much as it that it breaks my suspension of disbelief, and I don't understand how you can watch something like this and not ask questions when the basic rules of the fictional universe are being broken.

Where Cero and I differ is that Cero wants to be entertained by the action/comedy/drama/whatever is on his screen at the moment, whereas I want to be entertained by being told a story, and the action/comedy/drama needs to make sense within the story.

As for why to keep watching something you don't quite enjoy:
1. Because while I might not enjoy watching the show, I do enjoy talking about it with people
2. Part of the fun for me is in breaking things down. I like seeing how the puzzle pieces fit together, or if they didn't fit together, how they could have been made to do so.


I am genuinely surprised to hear that AEW is not in your top three right now. I figure NJPW and AJPW are up there. Is STARDOM the third? Where would you rank AEW?

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑May 25th, '20, 15:34
You can't "ask for the footage" of something we are told is happening live.

or course you can, you ask for access to the live cam. You can probably do it with Bluetooth

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑May 25th, '20, 15:34
There were absolutely not "tons of nearfalls" in this match, especially given its length.
- Matt Jackson gives Sammy Guevara at least fifty straight suplexes... and then does a f*cking dance instead of trying to pin him, all to set up a spot where he is given a non-existent penalty and then superkicks the referee. That's not trying to win.
- Adam Page and Kenny Omega work together and take out Jake Hager. Do they pin him afterwards? No. They have a drink together and then walk off. That's not trying to win.
- Matt Hardy has Santana trapped in an ice chest and has Ortiz tied to a chair, defenseless. Does he lock on a submission hold and try to choke him out for the victory? No. He just leaves the area. That's not trying to win.
- Nick hits his big dive onto Chris Jericho and Jericho is out cold. Do they try to pin him? No. They draw a line on him, then they walk away.
- Adam Page shows up on a f*cking horse, so Sammy Guevara runs away from him. Does Page ride around on his horse, trying to trample is enemies to death? No. He goes and chases after the guy who ran away, negating his team's five-on-four advantage. That's not trying to win (and why even show up on the f*cking horse in the first place if you weren't going to use it for military purposes?). Ditto for when Jake Hager did the same thing later, leaving a situation where his team had the man advantage to go look for the member of the opposing team who wasn't fighting.

Sure, they went for some pinfalls, but for so many of the spots that made you think "that's it, this guy is out," they just walked away afterwards instead of going for the win, for no other reason than that wasn't the scripted finish.

- wait wait wait, so you're telling me when a player celebrates a goal, touchdown, 3-pointer, home run, they're not trying to win? Are you trying to watch robots fight? or real people?

- They took him out and who was going to count the pin? there was no ref there that i remember. They took him out and went straight to find someone else to take out. Eliminating threats IS trying to win.

- See above.

- Mocking Jericho hurts his ego more than a pin, plus have you consider that they likely want to take out everyone? beat them all up?

- How is it not trying to win if you're trying to take out Sammy? Is hangman smart? idk, maybe not, he's a drunk cowboy, so probably not, but he sure as hell is trying to take out the opposition which IS trying to win.

This isn't a friendly sporting competition, it's a fight, you want Orton vs Triple H at WM when this needed to be Generico vs Steen. You beat them up and then you care for the 'W'. Seriously, in a fight called 'Stadium Stampede' where people were trying to kill each other, do you think the match would have ended with a quick roll up at minute 5 and everyone healthy? fuck no, they would had just kept fighting anyway

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑May 25th, '20, 15:51
It's not about "exposing the business" to me in the traditional sense so much as it that it breaks my suspension of disbelief, and I don't understand how you can watch something like this and not ask questions when the basic rules of the fictional universe are being broken.

Where Cero and I differ is that Cero wants to be entertained by the action/comedy/drama/whatever is on his screen at the moment, whereas I want to be entertained by being told a story, and the action/comedy/drama needs to make sense within the story.

As for why to keep watching something you don't quite enjoy:
1. Because while I might not enjoy watching the show, I do enjoy talking about it with people
2. Part of the fun for me is in breaking things down. I like seeing how the puzzle pieces fit together, or if they didn't fit together, how they could have been made to do so.


I am genuinely surprised to hear that AEW is not in your top three right now. I figure NJPW and AJPW are up there. Is STARDOM the third? Where would you rank AEW?

it just takes more for me to break that suspension maybe. To me rule breaking, referees making poo decisions or having personalities, people not caring about winning, and even comedy, it's all quite realistic to me. Maybe i don't give the impression, but while i accept magic, i don't like it, to me it's cheesy, but that doesn't mean that it makes something bad just for being there.

I like being told a story, but like your second point, I don't care for every single detail once broken down. I also think that I may pay more attention to a lot of stuff told outside of the show, I pay attention to twitter, youtube, and such, and I think I see more like that. Is that bad for the promotion's storytelling? maybe, I see it as getting more for my effort, because the overall story is still legible without it.

right now (considering that there's no current NJPW).
1. Gatoh Move/ChocoPro
2. NJPW
3. DDT/Tokyo Joshi PW
4. toss up between NOAH and AJPW, i'm really annoyed with SUWAMA winning the title
5. AEW
7. Dragon Gate
8. Impact
9. STARDOM (my last show was the cinderella tournament, i don't know how i'll feel after last week)
10. PWG (the mighty have fallen)

cero2k wrote: ↑May 25th, '20, 16:01

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑May 25th, '20, 15:34
You can't "ask for the footage" of something we are told is happening live.

or course you can, you ask for access to the live cam. You can probably do it with Bluetooth

Correct. But you have to get in touch with a person who knows the frequency, and know that it's a good thing to cut to. Did Matt Hardy pull out his phone (which I guess must be waterproof) and call up the production truck and say "hey, my drone is about to fly in. Here's the link. Put it on the screen, please?" That seems like a poor use of time that he could have been using to get to somewhere where there was a fight going on that he could help a teammate out in.

cero2k wrote: ↑May 25th, '20, 16:01

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑May 25th, '20, 15:34
There were absolutely not "tons of nearfalls" in this match, especially given its length.
- Matt Jackson gives Sammy Guevara at least fifty straight suplexes... and then does a f*cking dance instead of trying to pin him, all to set up a spot where he is given a non-existent penalty and then superkicks the referee. That's not trying to win.
- Adam Page and Kenny Omega work together and take out Jake Hager. Do they pin him afterwards? No. They have a drink together and then walk off. That's not trying to win.
- Matt Hardy has Santana trapped in an ice chest and has Ortiz tied to a chair, defenseless. Does he lock on a submission hold and try to choke him out for the victory? No. He just leaves the area. That's not trying to win.
- Nick hits his big dive onto Chris Jericho and Jericho is out cold. Do they try to pin him? No. They draw a line on him, then they walk away.
- Adam Page shows up on a f*cking horse, so Sammy Guevara runs away from him. Does Page ride around on his horse, trying to trample is enemies to death? No. He goes and chases after the guy who ran away, negating his team's five-on-four advantage. That's not trying to win (and why even show up on the f*cking horse in the first place if you weren't going to use it for military purposes?). Ditto for when Jake Hager did the same thing later, leaving a situation where his team had the man advantage to go look for the member of the opposing team who wasn't fighting.

Sure, they went for some pinfalls, but for so many of the spots that made you think "that's it, this guy is out," they just walked away afterwards instead of going for the win, for no other reason than that wasn't the scripted finish.

- wait wait wait, so you're telling me when a player celebrates a goal, touchdown, 3-pointer, home run, they're not trying to win? Are you trying to watch robots fight? or real people?
All of these things happen WHEN THE PLAY IS DEAD, AFTER THE GOAL HAS BEEN SCORED (with the exception of sometimes when a football player is so far ahead that he might start to celebrate a few yards away from the end zone, while still moving towards it.

- They took him out and who was going to count the pin? there was no ref there that i remember. They took him out and went straight to find someone else to take out. Eliminating threats IS trying to win.
Didn't Kenny run in and break up a pin? And if there wasn't, why wasn't there one there? Don't they have enough referees to follow five sets of guys around? Are you telling me AEW sent a cameraman there and knew there was action going on, but no one said "hey, let's send a referee?"
- See above.

- Mocking Jericho hurts his ego more than a pin, plus have you consider that they likely want to take out everyone? beat them all up?

So just go beat Sammy up winning the match. Or why not go hurt Jericho even more while he's unconscious, then?
And if the goal is just to beat the opposing faction up, then why are we even having this match? Didn't they just brawl last week in this same football stadium? And I'm sure they'll have many more chance to hurt each other over the coming weeks. Why have referees here at all? You answer invalidates the entire concept of having a professional wrestling match instead of just letting them wail on each other forever.
- How is it not trying to win if you're trying to take out Sammy? Is hangman smart? idk, maybe not, he's a drunk cowboy, so probably not, but he sure as hell is trying to take out the opposition which IS trying to win.

Because Sammy had already taken himself out of the fight by running away. And if Page wanted to hurt Sammy so badly, he wouldn't have given up and gone to the bar.

This isn't a friendly sporting competition, it's a fight, you want Orton vs Triple H at WM when this needed to be Generico vs Steen. You beat them up and then you care for the 'W'. Seriously, in a fight called 'Stadium Stampede' where people were trying to kill each other, do you think the match would have ended with a quick roll up at minute 5 and everyone healthy? fuck no, they would had just kept fighting anyway

Steen vs. Generico is exactly what I want. At no point after beating Steen up did Generico stop to do a dance, and then get yelled at by the referee for a non-existent infraction. At no point in Steen vs. Generico did they (or even Cabana and Corino) pass up the opportunity to attack the other from behind in favor of sitting down at the bar next to him.
Steen and Generico made me believe that they hated each other's guys and wanted to kill each other. Ditto for Homicide and Corino or Jacobs and Whitmer or the Briscoes and Guerrillas of Destiny or Austin and Triple H. wXw even got this right with undercard guys who up until that point had been mostly comedy figures with Alpha Lovers vs. Marius van Beethoven and Alpha Female.
These guys lost that the moment they decided that Matt Hardy had to mug for an inexplicably-placed underwater camera when people were trying to drown him, or that this match is happening on a football field and thus all of a sudden our referees are going to act like it's a football game and not a wrestling match and start throwing flags for football penalties. That's the point that this turns into a farce and it's impossible to ignore that they're all working together and that what I'm watching isn't the blood feud they've been trying to sell me on.

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑May 25th, '20, 16:46 Correct. But you have to get in touch with a person who knows the frequency, and know that it's a good thing to cut to. Did Matt Hardy pull out his phone (which I guess must be waterproof) and call up the production truck and say "hey, my drone is about to fly in. Here's the link. Put it on the screen, please?" That seems like a poor use of time that he could have been using to get to somewhere where there was a fight going on that he could help a teammate out in.

I mean, maybe they called Reby, or NEO-1 can answer by itself, bluetooth connections can just be open for connection, maybe NEO-1 was streaming live to Twitch and the production crew just shared the stream. Everything is quite likely and none of it is really that important, this is the type of thing that i don't understand how it becomes a complaint. How they connect to a drone is far from being a loophole.

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑May 25th, '20, 16:46
- wait wait wait, so you're telling me when a player celebrates a goal, touchdown, 3-pointer, home run, they're not trying to win? Are you trying to watch robots fight? or real people?
All of these things happen WHEN THE PLAY IS DEAD, AFTER THE GOAL HAS BEEN SCORED (with the exception of sometimes when a football player is so far ahead that he might start to celebrate a few yards away from the end zone, while still moving towards it.
There is a thing as early celebration that has worked against the one celebrating. At what point it happens is irrelevant, celebrating is a natural human reaction. It doesn't mean that you're not trying to win.

- They took him out and who was going to count the pin? there was no ref there that i remember. They took him out and went straight to find someone else to take out. Eliminating threats IS trying to win.
Didn't Kenny run in and break up a pin? And if there wasn't, why wasn't there one there? Don't they have enough referees to follow five sets of guys around? Are you telling me AEW sent a cameraman there and knew there was action going on, but no one said "hey, let's send a referee?"
double checked and there was a referee, but no pin attempts. I still don't see a problem, they weren't done taking out the whole team.

- Mocking Jericho hurts his ego more than a pin, plus have you consider that they likely want to take out everyone? beat them all up?
So just go beat Sammy up winning the match. Or why not go hurt Jericho even more while he's unconscious, then?
And if the goal is just to beat the opposing faction up, then why are we even having this match? Didn't they just brawl last week in this same football stadium? And I'm sure they'll have many more chance to hurt each other over the coming weeks. Why have referees here at all? You answer invalidates the entire concept of having a professional wrestling match instead of just letting them wail on each other forever.
Kenny and Matt are going after Sammy, Page can enjoy mocking Jericho. what's so wrong with that? When you hate someone, insult to injury feels good.
And why have the match? Because Jericho made the challenge, because doing this outside of a match is cause to get arrested? idk, you're asking why blood feud matches even happen, are we gonna start questioning why wrestling and not talk things over?


- How is it not trying to win if you're trying to take out Sammy? Is hangman smart? idk, maybe not, he's a drunk cowboy, so probably not, but he sure as hell is trying to take out the opposition which IS trying to win.
Because Sammy had already taken himself out of the fight by running away. And if Page wanted to hurt Sammy so badly, he wouldn't have given up and gone to the bar.
Sammy came back tho, even before Page did, running someone away for 5 minutes is 'taking him out', and Page doing to the bar is exactly his problem, the same problem that has been a storyline for the last 6 months or so? Page is an alcoholic and sometimes he puts more attention to that than his wrestling commitment.

This isn't a friendly sporting competition, it's a fight, you want Orton vs Triple H at WM when this needed to be Generico vs Steen. You beat them up and then you care for the 'W'. Seriously, in a fight called 'Stadium Stampede' where people were trying to kill each other, do you think the match would have ended with a quick roll up at minute 5 and everyone healthy? fuck no, they would had just kept fighting anyway
Steen vs. Generico is exactly what I want. At no point after beating Steen up did Generico stop to do a dance, and then get yelled at by the referee for a non-existent infraction. At no point in Steen vs. Generico did they (or even Cabana and Corino) pass up the opportunity to attack the other from behind in favor of sitting down at the bar next to him.
Steen and Generico made me believe that they hated each other's guys and wanted to kill each other. Ditto for Homicide and Corino or Jacobs and Whitmer or the Briscoes and Guerrillas of Destiny or Austin and Triple H. wXw even got this right with undercard guys who up until that point had been mostly comedy figures with Alpha Lovers vs. Marius van Beethoven and Alpha Female.
These guys lost that the moment they decided that Matt Hardy had to mug for an inexplicably-placed underwater camera when people were trying to drown him, or that this match is happening on a football field and thus all of a sudden our referees are going to act like it's a football game and not a wrestling match and start throwing flags for football penalties. That's the point that this turns into a farce and it's impossible to ignore that they're all working together and that what I'm watching isn't the blood feud they've been trying to sell me on.


We're looking at different levels of feuds here. Elite vs TIC is not a blood feud at the level of Generico vs Steen, it's not even at the level of TIC vs Mox, hell! even Cody vs Archer was way more heated, and do you know why none of them sat down at the bar next to each other? Because it wasn't part of their personality, because none of them are Hager or Page, because every situation is different.

Camera wasn't inexplicably-placed, those VIP pools usually have clear walls.

Now, you say that the referees are acting like football refs, I say, do you have historical reference that in past Stadium Stampede matches, this isn't part of the rules? I know you're gonna say, "well the announcers should explain everything to me before the match if they are", and to that all I have to say, does it really matter, man?
At no point did I think it was a farse, it's wrestling, i'm not gonna pretend like I don't know they're working together, the story is still there

cero2k wrote: ↑May 25th, '20, 21:47

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑May 25th, '20, 16:46 Correct. But you have to get in touch with a person who knows the frequency, and know that it's a good thing to cut to. Did Matt Hardy pull out his phone (which I guess must be waterproof) and call up the production truck and say "hey, my drone is about to fly in. Here's the link. Put it on the screen, please?" That seems like a poor use of time that he could have been using to get to somewhere where there was a fight going on that he could help a teammate out in.

I mean, maybe they called Reby, or NEO-1 can answer by itself, bluetooth connections can just be open for connection, maybe NEO-1 was streaming live to Twitch and the production crew just shared the stream. Everything is quite likely and none of it is really that important, this is the type of thing that i don't understand how it becomes a complaint. How they connect to a drone is far from being a loophole.

Okay.... then explain the Matt Hardy fact on the screen. How'd they know that one was coming. How'd they know which incarnation would emerge. Or even that they would go to the pool?

And the reason this stuff matters is because the POV shot from the drone was completely irrelevant. You could have shown this from any other angle, it wouldn't have caused people like me to ask these questions. It damages suspension of disbelief by making everything seem scripted when we're supposed to be pretending that it's organic.

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑May 25th, '20, 16:46
- wait wait wait, so you're telling me when a player celebrates a goal, touchdown, 3-pointer, home run, they're not trying to win? Are you trying to watch robots fight? or real people?
All of these things happen WHEN THE PLAY IS DEAD, AFTER THE GOAL HAS BEEN SCORED (with the exception of sometimes when a football player is so far ahead that he might start to celebrate a few yards away from the end zone, while still moving towards it.
There is a thing as early celebration that has worked against the one celebrating. At what point it happens is irrelevant, celebrating is a natural human reaction. It doesn't mean that you're not trying to win.
It doesn't happen IN THE MIDDLE OF A LIFE OR DEATH FIGHT!

- They took him out and who was going to count the pin? there was no ref there that i remember. They took him out and went straight to find someone else to take out. Eliminating threats IS trying to win.
Didn't Kenny run in and break up a pin? And if there wasn't, why wasn't there one there? Don't they have enough referees to follow five sets of guys around? Are you telling me AEW sent a cameraman there and knew there was action going on, but no one said "hey, let's send a referee?"
double checked and there was a referee, but no pin attempts. I still don't see a problem, they weren't done taking out the whole team.
Because they're supposed to be trying to win a wrestling match. If they weren't, why have a match with pinfalls? Why not make it Last Team Standing or use I Quit rules like in War Games?
And you youself said that there were nearfalls throughout the match. If you're going to argue that they didn't pin Hager here because they wanted to go take out the others, why did they try any of those other pins before the final one on Sammy?

- Mocking Jericho hurts his ego more than a pin, plus have you consider that they likely want to take out everyone? beat them all up?
So just go beat Sammy up winning the match. Or why not go hurt Jericho even more while he's unconscious, then?
And if the goal is just to beat the opposing faction up, then why are we even having this match? Didn't they just brawl last week in this same football stadium? And I'm sure they'll have many more chance to hurt each other over the coming weeks. Why have referees here at all? You answer invalidates the entire concept of having a professional wrestling match instead of just letting them wail on each other forever.
Kenny and Matt are going after Sammy, Page can enjoy mocking Jericho. what's so wrong with that? When you hate someone, insult to injury feels good.
And why have the match? Because Jericho made the challenge, because doing this outside of a match is cause to get arrested? idk, you're asking why blood feud matches even happen, are we gonna start questioning why wrestling and not talk things over?

Exactly. The match isn't an excuse to injure the other person while having it sanctioned by the state athletic commission so you can't get in legal trouble. The point of a blood feud match is to end the feud.
In blood feud matches, the point is always to win. Always has been, and always will be. People who forgo chances to win in order to injure the opponent more are universally portrayed as doing something wrong. A heel might be protrayed as being arrogant or sadistic while the announcers might tell us that a babyface his "letting his/her emotions get the better of him/her," but they are always portrayed as doing something wrong.
The whole concept of a blood feud match is that things between the wrestlers involved have gotten out of control, and we're trying to give them a legal outlet and framework to settle their differences in such a way that no one crosses a line and tries to run someone over in the parking lot or whatever. Getting the pinfall, making the opponent quit, being the last man standing, etc. under the direction of a referee is an agreed-upon method of proving one's superiority that both teams agree to as a stopping point so that they don't keep fighting until someone gets maimed.

- How is it not trying to win if you're trying to take out Sammy? Is hangman smart? idk, maybe not, he's a drunk cowboy, so probably not, but he sure as hell is trying to take out the opposition which IS trying to win.
Because Sammy had already taken himself out of the fight by running away. And if Page wanted to hurt Sammy so badly, he wouldn't have given up and gone to the bar.
Sammy came back tho, even before Page did, running someone away for 5 minutes is 'taking him out', and Page doing to the bar is exactly his problem, the same problem that has been a storyline for the last 6 months or so? Page is an alcoholic and sometimes he puts more attention to that than his wrestling commitment.

The point is that Page chasing after Sammy instead of staying to fight when his team had a five on four advantage was foolish.
And they keep playing the alcoholism thing for laughs. I will bet you anything the fact that Page went to the bar instead of wrestling is not going to be addressed in any meaningful way. The story is not progressing. It's being played for laughs. It's comedy, when it should be serious.

This isn't a friendly sporting competition, it's a fight, you want Orton vs Triple H at WM when this needed to be Generico vs Steen. You beat them up and then you care for the 'W'. Seriously, in a fight called 'Stadium Stampede' where people were trying to kill each other, do you think the match would have ended with a quick roll up at minute 5 and everyone healthy? fuck no, they would had just kept fighting anyway
Steen vs. Generico is exactly what I want. At no point after beating Steen up did Generico stop to do a dance, and then get yelled at by the referee for a non-existent infraction. At no point in Steen vs. Generico did they (or even Cabana and Corino) pass up the opportunity to attack the other from behind in favor of sitting down at the bar next to him.
Steen and Generico made me believe that they hated each other's guys and wanted to kill each other. Ditto for Homicide and Corino or Jacobs and Whitmer or the Briscoes and Guerrillas of Destiny or Austin and Triple H. wXw even got this right with undercard guys who up until that point had been mostly comedy figures with Alpha Lovers vs. Marius van Beethoven and Alpha Female.
These guys lost that the moment they decided that Matt Hardy had to mug for an inexplicably-placed underwater camera when people were trying to drown him, or that this match is happening on a football field and thus all of a sudden our referees are going to act like it's a football game and not a wrestling match and start throwing flags for football penalties. That's the point that this turns into a farce and it's impossible to ignore that they're all working together and that what I'm watching isn't the blood feud they've been trying to sell me on.


We're looking at different levels of feuds here. Elite vs TIC is not a blood feud at the level of Generico vs Steen, it's not even at the level of TIC vs Mox, hell! even Cody vs Archer was way more heated, and do you know why none of them sat down at the bar next to each other? Because it wasn't part of their personality, because none of them are Hager or Page, because every situation is different.
You yourself said this was Steen vs. Generico in your previous post!
If I'm not supposed to think of this as a blood feud at the level of those other feuds you mentioned, then why are these guys having the big, main event gimmick match? Why was this a weapons match but Cody vs. Archer or Moxley vs. Jericho weren't? And ditto for that Hardy & Omega vs. Jericho & Guevara match on TV a few weeks ago. Why has this feud had more no DQs matches in the past few weeks than Moxley vs. Inner Circle had in its entire run?
The Inner Circle jumped Nick Jackson backstage and smashed his face in, and you're trying to tell me this isn't a major blood feud? The Inner Circle killed Matt Hardy's friend the drone, and Matt was brought to tears over it. Excalibur told me that they basically did the equivalent of murdering Matt's pet. And I'm not supposed to think is a blood feud?

Also, there is zero evidence to support your claim that sitting down at a bar with his enemy is within Hager's personality. Absolutely none.



Camera wasn't inexplicably-placed, those VIP pools usually have clear walls.
Fine. That doesn't mean it wasn't silly that he was mugging for the camera.

Now, you say that the referees are acting like football refs, I say, do you have historical reference that in past Stadium Stampede matches, this isn't part of the rules? I know you're gonna say, "well the announcers should explain everything to me before the match if they are", and to that all I have to say, does it really matter, man?

YES! Yes it does matter! Because I want to be able to understand what is happening on the TV show that I'm watching! And any assertion that these things aren't important is undermined by the fact that they do them at the beginning of every single match.

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑May 25th, '20, 23:58 Okay.... then explain the Matt Hardy fact on the screen. How'd they know that one was coming. How'd they know which incarnation would emerge. Or even that they would go to the pool?

And the reason this stuff matters is because the POV shot from the drone was completely irrelevant. You could have shown this from any other angle, it wouldn't have caused people like me to ask these questions. It damages suspension of disbelief by making everything seem scripted when we're supposed to be pretending that it's organic.

premade overlays that take only seconds to edit, it's just text. They hire top notch graphic designers and production people. It's really not that hard.
Yeah, it could had been from a different angle, a less cinematic and boring shot, but doing this made a lot more people happy, because I'm sorry Red, from all I've heard, you're in the very small minority of people annoyed by something so irrelevant.

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑May 25th, '20, 23:58 There is a thing as early celebration that has worked against the one celebrating. At what point it happens is irrelevant, celebrating is a natural human reaction. It doesn't mean that you're not trying to win.
It doesn't happen IN THE MIDDLE OF A LIFE OR DEATH FIGHT!
Of course it does. You need to watch more kung fu movies.

double checked and there was a referee, but no pin attempts. I still don't see a problem, they weren't done taking out the whole team.
Because they're supposed to be trying to win a wrestling match. If they weren't, why have a match with pinfalls? Why not make it Last Team Standing or use I Quit rules like in War Games?
And you youself said that there were nearfalls throughout the match. If you're going to argue that they didn't pin Hager here because they wanted to go take out the others, why did they try any of those other pins before the final one on Sammy?
Why can't you have both? I don't understand why it's so hard for you to believe that people like to teach lessons to their opponent before taking the win.
It doesn't matter Red, they didn't feel like doing a pin and that's it, they had other plans. This is like asking why wrestlers don't go for pins as every move in the match.

Kenny and Matt are going after Sammy, Page can enjoy mocking Jericho. what's so wrong with that? When you hate someone, insult to injury feels good.
And why have the match? Because Jericho made the challenge, because doing this outside of a match is cause to get arrested? idk, you're asking why blood feud matches even happen, are we gonna start questioning why wrestling and not talk things over?

Exactly. The match isn't an excuse to injure the other person while having it sanctioned by the state athletic commission so you can't get in legal trouble. The point of a blood feud match is to end the feud.
In blood feud matches, the point is always to win. Always has been, and always will be. People who forgo chances to win in order to injure the opponent more are universally portrayed as doing something wrong. A heel might be protrayed as being arrogant or sadistic while the announcers might tell us that a babyface his "letting his/her emotions get the better of him/her," but they are always portrayed as doing something wrong.
The whole concept of a blood feud match is that things between the wrestlers involved have gotten out of control, and we're trying to give them a legal outlet and framework to settle their differences in such a way that no one crosses a line and tries to run someone over in the parking lot or whatever. Getting the pinfall, making the opponent quit, being the last man standing, etc. under the direction of a referee is an agreed-upon method of proving one's superiority that both teams agree to as a stopping point so that they don't keep fighting until someone gets maimed.
The point of EVERY match is to win, that doesn't mean that you just rush to the end, ESPECIALLY in a blood feud where the idea is that these two parties want to beat the shit out of each other. Wrestling is fake, we have the luxury of adding drama so you start screaming 'go for the pin' at the tv

Sammy came back tho, even before Page did, running someone away for 5 minutes is 'taking him out', and Page doing to the bar is exactly his problem, the same problem that has been a storyline for the last 6 months or so? Page is an alcoholic and sometimes he puts more attention to that than his wrestling commitment.

The point is that Page chasing after Sammy instead of staying to fight when his team had a five on four advantage was foolish.
And they keep playing the alcoholism thing for laughs. I will bet you anything the fact that Page went to the bar instead of wrestling is not going to be addressed in any meaningful way. The story is not progressing. It's being played for laughs. It's comedy, when it should be serious.
Foolish in the sense that it was bad judgement by Page? sure, but there's nothing wrong with it. People make mistakes, it's ok. Is your whole argument that babyfaces can't make mistakes?
It was made for laughs, but it wasn't a joke, it's the very same example I said with Hulk and Loki. It was funny, but it also added some tension knowing that the babyfaces were going to be outnumbered. The action itself isn't a joke.

You yourself said this was Steen vs. Generico in your previous post!
If I'm not supposed to think of this as a blood feud at the level of those other feuds you mentioned, then why are these guys having the big, main event gimmick match? Why was this a weapons match but Cody vs. Archer or Moxley vs. Jericho weren't? And ditto for that Hardy & Omega vs. Jericho & Guevara match on TV a few weeks ago. Why has this feud had more no DQs matches in the past few weeks than Moxley vs. Inner Circle had in its entire run?
The Inner Circle jumped Nick Jackson backstage and smashed his face in, and you're trying to tell me this isn't a major blood feud? The Inner Circle killed Matt Hardy's friend the drone, and Matt was brought to tears over it. Excalibur told me that they basically did the equivalent of murdering Matt's pet. And I'm not supposed to think is a blood feud?

Also, there is zero evidence to support your claim that sitting down at a bar with his enemy is within Hager's personality. Absolutely none.

You really do take everything literal and binary, right? Just because I said this is like Steen vs Generico doesn't mean that it's 100% EXACTLY the same. Things aren't binary, they're gray area all inbetween. The point of them being similar is that these two teams are not going to build this match and then just lock up to start the match, this is Steen vs Generico in the sense that they don't want to wait to beat each other and that they're not going to just be happy with a pin and everyone walks away walking like nothing. Major blood feuds don't all need to have the same intensity and reach the same conclusions, and no one is saying this ain't a blood feud, it's just the same as others.
And so you're saying that you can't have a big match if it's not a blood feud? Why not? Why would Cody vs Archer have stipulations if it's a tournament match? Not all blood feuds need stipulation matches and not all stipulation matches need to be blood feuds.
We don't need obvious evidence, but if it's really important to you, now you have it. It starts somewhere.


Camera wasn't inexplicably-placed, those VIP pools usually have clear walls.
Fine. That doesn't mean it wasn't silly that he was mugging for the camera.
and Matt Hardy is a silly character. It's appropriate.

Now, you say that the referees are acting like football refs, I say, do you have historical reference that in past Stadium Stampede matches, this isn't part of the rules? I know you're gonna say, "well the announcers should explain everything to me before the match if they are", and to that all I have to say, does it really matter, man?
[/color]
YES! Yes it does matter! Because I want to be able to understand what is happening on the TV show that I'm watching! And any assertion that these things aren't important is undermined by the fact that they do them at the beginning of every single match.
Well, it's not important to me and thus I loved this match. I've said it before, I don't watch wrestling with a rule book in my hands, and I perfectly understood everything that was watching.

cero2k wrote: ↑May 26th, '20, 13:31

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑May 25th, '20, 23:58 Okay.... then explain the Matt Hardy fact on the screen. How'd they know that one was coming. How'd they know which incarnation would emerge. Or even that they would go to the pool?

And the reason this stuff matters is because the POV shot from the drone was completely irrelevant. You could have shown this from any other angle, it wouldn't have caused people like me to ask these questions. It damages suspension of disbelief by making everything seem scripted when we're supposed to be pretending that it's organic.

premade overlays that take only seconds to edit, it's just text. They hire top notch graphic designers and production people. It's really not that hard.
Yeah, it could had been from a different angle, a less cinematic and boring shot, but doing this made a lot more people happy, because I'm sorry Red, from all I've heard, you're in the very small minority of people annoyed by something so irrelevant.

Why even do a shot that spoils a surprise (that this is water from the Lake of Reincarnation and thus Matt is in no danger)?

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑May 25th, '20, 23:58 There is a thing as early celebration that has worked against the one celebrating. At what point it happens is irrelevant, celebrating is a natural human reaction. It doesn't mean that you're not trying to win.
It doesn't happen IN THE MIDDLE OF A LIFE OR DEATH FIGHT!
Of course it does. You need to watch more kung fu movies.
Not to the excessive degree that we saw here. Point me to one time you saw that in boxing or MMA or amateur wrestling or anything of the sort.

double checked and there was a referee, but no pin attempts. I still don't see a problem, they weren't done taking out the whole team.
Because they're supposed to be trying to win a wrestling match. If they weren't, why have a match with pinfalls? Why not make it Last Team Standing or use I Quit rules like in War Games?
And you youself said that there were nearfalls throughout the match. If you're going to argue that they didn't pin Hager here because they wanted to go take out the others, why did they try any of those other pins before the final one on Sammy?
Why can't you have both? I don't understand why it's so hard for you to believe that people like to teach lessons to their opponent before taking the win.
but that's not what happened in the match. They "taught their opponent the lesson"... and then didn't go for the pin

It doesn't matter Red, they didn't feel like doing a pin and that's it, they had other plans. This is like asking why wrestlers don't go for pins as every move in the match.
No it's not, because when a wrestler doesn't go for a pin after a move, it's because they're going to hit another move. They don't just walk away.

Kenny and Matt are going after Sammy, Page can enjoy mocking Jericho. what's so wrong with that? When you hate someone, insult to injury feels good.
And why have the match? Because Jericho made the challenge, because doing this outside of a match is cause to get arrested? idk, you're asking why blood feud matches even happen, are we gonna start questioning why wrestling and not talk things over?

Exactly. The match isn't an excuse to injure the other person while having it sanctioned by the state athletic commission so you can't get in legal trouble. The point of a blood feud match is to end the feud.
In blood feud matches, the point is always to win. Always has been, and always will be. People who forgo chances to win in order to injure the opponent more are universally portrayed as doing something wrong. A heel might be protrayed as being arrogant or sadistic while the announcers might tell us that a babyface his "letting his/her emotions get the better of him/her," but they are always portrayed as doing something wrong.
The whole concept of a blood feud match is that things between the wrestlers involved have gotten out of control, and we're trying to give them a legal outlet and framework to settle their differences in such a way that no one crosses a line and tries to run someone over in the parking lot or whatever. Getting the pinfall, making the opponent quit, being the last man standing, etc. under the direction of a referee is an agreed-upon method of proving one's superiority that both teams agree to as a stopping point so that they don't keep fighting until someone gets maimed.
The point of EVERY match is to win, that doesn't mean that you just rush to the end, ESPECIALLY in a blood feud where the idea is that these two parties want to beat the shit out of each other. Wrestling is fake, we have the luxury of adding drama so you start screaming 'go for the pin' at the tv
There is no drama when someone just walks away and doesn't go for the pin. Drama from someone not going for a pin comes from the idea that they're being sadistic and keeping a beating going more than is necessary, and you either want to see them wind up getting burned for it if they're a heel or you want to see them realize the error they're making and not lose control of themselves and wind up losing the match if they're a babyface. It doesn't come from someone beating someone up to the point where it looks like they can win if they go for a pin, adn then just going off to do something else.

Sammy came back tho, even before Page did, running someone away for 5 minutes is 'taking him out', and Page doing to the bar is exactly his problem, the same problem that has been a storyline for the last 6 months or so? Page is an alcoholic and sometimes he puts more attention to that than his wrestling commitment.

The point is that Page chasing after Sammy instead of staying to fight when his team had a five on four advantage was foolish.
And they keep playing the alcoholism thing for laughs. I will bet you anything the fact that Page went to the bar instead of wrestling is not going to be addressed in any meaningful way. The story is not progressing. It's being played for laughs. It's comedy, when it should be serious.
Foolish in the sense that it was bad judgement by Page? sure, but there's nothing wrong with it. People make mistakes, it's ok. Is your whole argument that babyfaces can't make mistakes?
It was made for laughs, but it wasn't a joke, it's the very same example I said with Hulk and Loki. It was funny, but it also added some tension knowing that the babyfaces were going to be outnumbered. The action itself isn't a joke.
People shouldn't do things that are silly and ridiculous. Why did Page show up on a horse in the first place if he wasn't going to use the horse in any intelligent manner? The whole thing was intended to be one big joke (it's Sammy running away from the horse like he was running away from the golf cart the other week). And I find it utterly ridiculous that Page can care enough to show up, but the first sign of a bar makes him decide to abandon his friends and go drinking? If the babyfaces are going to be outnumbered, it shouldn't be for reasons that are played for comedy. If the babyfaces are going to make mistakes, it shouldn't be for reasons that are played for comedy, and the heel (in this case Hager) shouldn't be an idiot and go negate his team's advantage by looking for a guy who isn't even trying to fight.

You yourself said this was Steen vs. Generico in your previous post!
If I'm not supposed to think of this as a blood feud at the level of those other feuds you mentioned, then why are these guys having the big, main event gimmick match? Why was this a weapons match but Cody vs. Archer or Moxley vs. Jericho weren't? And ditto for that Hardy & Omega vs. Jericho & Guevara match on TV a few weeks ago. Why has this feud had more no DQs matches in the past few weeks than Moxley vs. Inner Circle had in its entire run?
The Inner Circle jumped Nick Jackson backstage and smashed his face in, and you're trying to tell me this isn't a major blood feud? The Inner Circle killed Matt Hardy's friend the drone, and Matt was brought to tears over it. Excalibur told me that they basically did the equivalent of murdering Matt's pet. And I'm not supposed to think is a blood feud?

Also, there is zero evidence to support your claim that sitting down at a bar with his enemy is within Hager's personality. Absolutely none.

You really do take everything literal and binary, right? Just because I said this is like Steen vs Generico doesn't mean that it's 100% EXACTLY the same. Things aren't binary, they're gray area all inbetween. The point of them being similar is that these two teams are not going to build this match and then just lock up to start the match, this is Steen vs Generico in the sense that they don't want to wait to beat each other and that they're not going to just be happy with a pin and everyone walks away walking like nothing. Major blood feuds don't all need to have the same intensity and reach the same conclusions, and no one is saying this ain't a blood feud, it's just the same as others.

This NO level of blood feud where you just sit down next your opponent at the bar in the middle of the match! NONE!
If it's a blood feud, they hate each other and they're trying to prove their superiority and are willing to do whatever it takes to makes sure they beat the other, even something they would normally shy away from like trying to end someone's career. Blood feuds don't all need to have the exact same intensity, but there is a certain level of intensity that something needs to have to be a blood feud, and anything where they're sitting down together to share a drink in the middle of the match isn't a blood feud.



And so you're saying that you can't have a big match if it's not a blood feud? Why not? Why would Cody vs Archer have stipulations if it's a tournament match? Not all blood feuds need stipulation matches and not all stipulation matches need to be blood feuds.

I'm not saying that at all. (although something that doesn't eventually need gimmick match is really move of a rivalry than a feud). What I am saying is in order to have a stipulation match, you need a reason. The last time these two wrestled it wound up as a double-count-out, so this time it's going to be Falls Count Anywhere. The last time these two wrestled someone interfere,d so this time we're doing it in a cage. Sometimes the reason can be as simple as "some of the people in this match haven't done enough to really earn this #1 contendership spot, so we're going to make it a more dangerous or difficult match type."
But if the reason is "these two teams hate each other and the match would probably just get out of control and have to be thrown out if we booked a normal match so we'll book a weapons match," that is a blood feud! And that's what this match was. If you hate someone and want to hurt someone, you don't just go sit down at the bar next to them to chat in the middle of the time you're legally allowed to be hurting them!



We don't need obvious evidence, but if it's really important to you, now you have it. It starts somewhere.
That's correct... but only if this actually the start of something. If this personality trait emerges in Hager, and he starts showing a level of personal respect for his opponents that the rest of the group don't have, then I'll happily admit that I was wrong. But if this doesn't happen, then this is an inconsistency in his character that existed entirely for the sake of a laugh.
But like I said in the other thread with the Orange Cassidy example I think I'm pretty well justified in my cynicism at this point. Every time you give me some "well maybe X," explanation for something, it never winds up panning out with what AEW puts on our TV screens. How many times are you going to keep defending them on these things!


Camera wasn't inexplicably-placed, those VIP pools usually have clear walls.
Fine. That doesn't mean it wasn't silly that he was mugging for the camera.
and Matt Hardy is a silly character. It's appropriate.
It's a different kind of silly, though. He's outlandish. He's not someone who mugs for the camera. When has Broken Matt ever mugged for the camera? (And if you're about to say, "well that isn't Broken Matt, it's Matt Hardy Version 1.0," I'll counter with the fact that Matt Hardy Version 1.0 wasn't a silly character).

Now, you say that the referees are acting like football refs, I say, do you have historical reference that in past Stadium Stampede matches, this isn't part of the rules? I know you're gonna say, "well the announcers should explain everything to me before the match if they are", and to that all I have to say, does it really matter, man?
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YES! Yes it does matter! Because I want to be able to understand what is happening on the TV show that I'm watching! And any assertion that these things aren't important is undermined by the fact that they do them at the beginning of every single match.
Well, it's not important to me and thus I loved this match. I've said it before, I don't watch wrestling with a rule book in my hands, and I perfectly understood everything that was watching.
Then that sort of thing has to cut both ways. How can you be okay with an unannounced instant replay rule randomly being added to a match, but not okay with Seth Rollins getting DQed in Hell in a Cell. Maybe just like Justin Roberts didn't mention instant replay in his intro to this match, Kayla Braxton didn't mention that you actually can be DQed if you try to hit someone with a sledgehammer after stacking a bunch of stuff onto them? How can you be okay with one and not with the other?

[/quote]

Do we know why that main event should not be 10/10?
It never occurred to me until I saw the clip of Matt in the pool changing characters (which in itself is stupid) BUT... They opened the show with a tribute to Shad Ghaspard... and then proceeded to try and faciliatated the attempted drowning of Matt Hardy in the main event.

XIV wrote: ↑Jun 7th, '20, 06:32 Do we know why that main event should not be 10/10?
It never occurred to me until I saw the clip of Matt in the pool changing characters (which in itself is stupid) BUT... They opened the show with a tribute to Shad Ghaspard... and then proceeded to try and faciliatated the attempted drowning of Matt Hardy in the main event.

I hadn't even thought of that.

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Jun 7th, '20, 10:18

XIV wrote: ↑Jun 7th, '20, 06:32 Do we know why that main event should not be 10/10?
It never occurred to me until I saw the clip of Matt in the pool changing characters (which in itself is stupid) BUT... They opened the show with a tribute to Shad Ghaspard... and then proceeded to try and faciliatated the attempted drowning of Matt Hardy in the main event.

I hadn't even thought of that.

It’s dawned a while after, but yeah, not ideal really. Luckily it hasn’t been picked up on!

XIV wrote: ↑Jun 7th, '20, 11:35
It’s dawned a while after, but yeah, not ideal really. Luckily it hasn’t been picked up on!

it was picked up immediately, talked about on some news sites, and for the most part, people were smart enough to realize that it wasn't done on purpose and that Matt Hardy was never actually drowned. It would had been a dumb overreaction, just like overreacting with Orton and Edge hanging each other from workout machines days later that the Benoit documentary came out.

cero2k wrote: ↑Jun 7th, '20, 21:21

XIV wrote: ↑Jun 7th, '20, 11:35
It’s dawned a while after, but yeah, not ideal really. Luckily it hasn’t been picked up on!

it was picked up immediately, talked about on some news sites, and for the most part, people were smart enough to realize that it wasn't done on purpose and that Matt Hardy was never actually drowned. It would had been a dumb overreaction, just like overreacting with Orton and Edge hanging each other from workout machines days later that the Benoit documentary came out.

Well, this is the only site where I get my wrasslin news (plus a couple podcasts). So, I wouldn’t necessarily have seen that (unless it pops up on mainstream social media).

I agree on the Orton / Edge - Benoit thing.

It might be an overreaction, but there’s no need to put that stuff there to give people the chance to have a negative reaction.