BRM Reviews WWE Royal Rumble 2019 (just... wow. On so many levels and in so many ways)

[cero2k]

I just don't see any difference between Xia Li and Lacey or the Street Profits. She's a stereotypical high society southern belle, they're stereotypical "fun black guys," and Xia is a stereotypical Chinese martial artist. Also, any benefit of character depth Lacey or the Street Profits have comes from them having been on TV for like two years each. Xia appears on TV maybe once a quarter, and hasn't had any sort of storyline or chance to cut a promo. If anything, you're rushing to judgment form an extremely limited sample size.
Street Prophets are 'Fun Guys' that happen to be black, if you think it's a racial stereotype, then don't excuse it, it's as bad as Xia Li then. I'm not rushing to judgement, i'm giving my first impression about her, and you only get one first impression.


Right. But that's different than what you said, which was attributing Jeff's success (and Kacy's future success) merely to looking pretty and being a spot monkey. Jeff certain was a spot monkey at times. With Kacy, the jury is still out (most people don't make gifs of wristlocks). But in both cases I think charisma is a major difference-maker, and charisma is not the same thing as looking pretty (see: Brooke, Dana)
Fine, she and Jeff are charismatic spot monkeys, spot monkeys at the end of the day. I can guarantee that she is gonna do the rope headstand spinny thing on 80% of her matches, no because it's part of her arsenal or because it works a body part towards the finisher, but simply because it looks cool.


Why is getting eliminated from a Rumble and intimidating the referee to not call you out and then jumping back in any more cheating that hitting someone with a weapon and intimidating a referee so that he doens't disqualify you?
Yes, WWE is jumping through hoops to enforce technicalities for the sake of spots, but New Japan is outright IGNORING the rules for the sake of spots.
I'm not saying it ain't, but i haven't seen the former happen yet in NJPW, or any other promotion really. Both cases seen completely understandable for a heel tho, i like the idea of those spots. I guess it's similar to what Tessa did on Impact that led to Gail Kim being the guest ref.

As a fan, i can understand 'referee discretion', i can understand heel referees, it's not something that I even have to question why a promotion doesn't fire them, but I can't understand why Kofi, having talked about saves, didn't just bring a ton of pancakes and put them around the ring.
"Referee's discretion" is thinking that a nut shot was an accident and giving the injured party some time to recover and then starting up again instead of just calling for a DQ. Referee's discretion is someone getting knocked off the apron and falling through a table and the referee not calling for a DQ because he thinks the wrestler only mean to knock the opponent off the apron, not put him through a table. Referee's discretion is the spot in the Adam Cole vs. Jay Lethal ROH World Title match in the UK where Cole is clearly purposely trying to get himself disqualified to retain the title and so he kicks Lethal in the nuts but Lethal BEGS Sinclair not to call for the bell, and Sinclair looks absolutely agonized over having to make the decision before finally deciding to let the match continue.
Referee's discretion is NOT "I'm just going to let this guy get away with cheating because I don't feel like calling a DQ here in this match where calling for a DQ would have nothing but negative consequences for the offending wrestler.

It's all referee discretion, just as referees giving DQs for 'excessive violence' or double team moves. Just as referees not starting to count immediately when a wrestler is thrown out of the ring. Just as slow/fast counting refs, maybe they should get fired for not properly counting exact seconds.


As for why I have to ask why a referee wouldn't be fired... if every time someone through a 12-6 elbow a certain UFC referee would just tell the guy to stop instead of calling for a DQ or giving him an official warning and giving the other guy time to recover, and the guy throwing the illegal elbows jut kept doing it, Dana would fire that referee's ass. That's essentially what happens in most NJPW matches where there is a clear heel side, except it's been happening for YEARS and New Japan hasn't done sh*t about it (except for those few months where they chose to selectively enforce the rules to only target Tongans, which is something that in and of itself should have caused some sort of kayfabe investigation).
At least in WWE's case- in this one case- they are messing up because they're thinking too hard, rather than places like New Japan or ROH which don't think enough.

Are we going to bring in a legit sport where refs are there to protect people's lives? Because in that case, WWE refs aren't anal enough either, I see tons of wrestlers keeping locks past the 5 count, I see TONS of close fist punches, tons of double team moves, TONS of times when the ref goes out of the ring to tell the wrestlers to go back instead of counting them out.
This is pro wrestling, sports entertainment, you can suspend your disbelief and think that refs have discretion, you can believe that WWE can't fire their refs for some Union reason, but can you do the same to argue why every year, people don't just wait and take out #30 entrant of the rumble?

So why do Kenny and the Bucks and Cody do comedy in ROH main events? Or RevPro main events? Those are promotions that claim to be the top promotions in their region.
And WWE also tells you they're "Sports Entertainment" and not professional wrestling, so by your own logic how can you get upset about their bad comedy?
I'm not defending ROH or RevPro, i don't watch them, they're as bad as WWE if that is the case. But for that matter, Omega and the Bucks, they do comedy, but they also win, and when they need to get serious, they do. I've never seen comedy in a Kenny Omega title match, nor have i ever seen Omega or the Bucks dance their way away from being eliminated from the second biggest match in the world.

They can call themselves honkey dory carny show, we all know it's the same shit, they claim to be THE place to be and to have the most prestigious championship in the universe, week in week out, WWE has people not care when they get eliminated, when they lose titles, because they just like to have fun. As stupid as comedy can get, you should never portray a loser as happy or not care about losing. The only think i agree with JBL, if you're not here to win the championship, then what the hell are you doing here?

[Big Red Machine]

I just don't see any difference between Xia Li and Lacey or the Street Profits. She's a stereotypical high society southern belle, they're stereotypical "fun black guys," and Xia is a stereotypical Chinese martial artist. Also, any benefit of character depth Lacey or the Street Profits have comes from them having been on TV for like two years each. Xia appears on TV maybe once a quarter, and hasn't had any sort of storyline or chance to cut a promo. If anything, you're rushing to judgment form an extremely limited sample size.
Street Prophets are 'Fun Guys' that happen to be black, if you think it's a racial stereotype, then don't excuse it, it's as bad as Xia Li then. I'm not rushing to judgement, i'm giving my first impression about her, and you only get one first impression.
I don't have a problem with positive stereotypes in wrestling when they play to someone's personality well. The Street Profits work so well because they are fun guys. And I don't have a problem with one of WWE's first Chinese wrestlers who actually happens to be a martial artist doing a martial arts gimmick. Her dressing in a stereotypical Chinese outfit sets her apart from the other people doing martial arts gimmicks in the company (Conti, Jaoude who wear gis with the Brazilian flag on them. I'm saying that if you have a problem with Conti, you should have a problem with the others as well.

Right. But that's different than what you said, which was attributing Jeff's success (and Kacy's future success) merely to looking pretty and being a spot monkey. Jeff certain was a spot monkey at times. With Kacy, the jury is still out (most people don't make gifs of wristlocks). But in both cases I think charisma is a major difference-maker, and charisma is not the same thing as looking pretty (see: Brooke, Dana)
Fine, she and Jeff are charismatic spot monkeys, spot monkeys at the end of the day. I can guarantee that she is gonna do the rope headstand spinny thing on 80% of her matches, no because it's part of her arsenal or because it works a body part towards the finisher, but simply because it looks cool.
I don't think we have anywhere near enough evidence yet to call her a spot monkey. You've seen two gifs of her and two spots in a Royal Rumble. Maybe wait to see her in some actual matches first.


Why is getting eliminated from a Rumble and intimidating the referee to not call you out and then jumping back in any more cheating that hitting someone with a weapon and intimidating a referee so that he doens't disqualify you?
Yes, WWE is jumping through hoops to enforce technicalities for the sake of spots, but New Japan is outright IGNORING the rules for the sake of spots.
I'm not saying it ain't, but i haven't seen the former happen yet in NJPW, or any other promotion really. Both cases seen completely understandable for a heel tho, i like the idea of those spots. I guess it's similar to what Tessa did on Impact that led to Gail Kim being the guest ref.
You haven't seen it in New Japan? Dude... it happens ALL THE TIME. Basically every Suzuki-Gun or Bullet Club match has this happen, 90% of the matches will have their BS enforcement of the count-out rule, which they clearly do just to let guys do spots on the outside, then only start enforcing the rule again so we get can the spot that is there stupid count-out tease. Okada and Omega had at least one spot where a referee clearly ignored one putting the other through a table or throwing a table at him and hitting him.
It is in no way similar to the Gail Kim thing. Tessa attacked a referee and GOT DQed to retain her title. To stop her from doing this in the future, TNA then assigned Tessa's next title defense to a referee who was less fragile. That's telling a story. In New Japan the referees never do anything and the promotion does not take any steps whatsoever to prevent further abuse and ensure compliance with the rules.


As a fan, i can understand 'referee discretion', i can understand heel referees, it's not something that I even have to question why a promotion doesn't fire them, but I can't understand why Kofi, having talked about saves, didn't just bring a ton of pancakes and put them around the ring.
"Referee's discretion" is thinking that a nut shot was an accident and giving the injured party some time to recover and then starting up again instead of just calling for a DQ. Referee's discretion is someone getting knocked off the apron and falling through a table and the referee not calling for a DQ because he thinks the wrestler only mean to knock the opponent off the apron, not put him through a table. Referee's discretion is the spot in the Adam Cole vs. Jay Lethal ROH World Title match in the UK where Cole is clearly purposely trying to get himself disqualified to retain the title and so he kicks Lethal in the nuts but Lethal BEGS Sinclair not to call for the bell, and Sinclair looks absolutely agonized over having to make the decision before finally deciding to let the match continue.
Referee's discretion is NOT "I'm just going to let this guy get away with cheating because I don't feel like calling a DQ here in this match where calling for a DQ would have nothing but negative consequences for the offending wrestler.

It's all referee discretion, just as referees giving DQs for 'excessive violence' or double team moves. Just as referees not starting to count immediately when a wrestler is thrown out of the ring. Just as slow/fast counting refs, maybe they should get fired for not properly counting exact seconds.
A referee's cadence on a count-out can be left up to his or her discretion, but that's because the rule is that you have a "ten-count" or a "twenty-count" or whatever on the floor. The referee's cadence in a pinfall should not vary noticeably from referee to referee because the rules stipulate that a pinfall is "three seconds," not a "three-count."
Excessive violence DQs (and the similar call of a referee stoppage) are left up to the referee's discretion because they are inherently opinion-based matters (and even with an excessive violence DQ, the referee should be visibly warning the wrestler first, preferably multiple times).
Not getting out of the ring by a five-count after a tag is something I'd like to see referees enforce a lot more often, but that, too, is a "five-count" not "five seconds" so a referee not counting at all is just a referee ignoring the rules, not making a judgment call with any legal basis.
And yes, they should be fired. They are willingly failing to live up to their responsibilities to do their best to ensure fair competition and ensure the safety of the athletes.


As for why I have to ask why a referee wouldn't be fired... if every time someone through a 12-6 elbow a certain UFC referee would just tell the guy to stop instead of calling for a DQ or giving him an official warning and giving the other guy time to recover, and the guy throwing the illegal elbows jut kept doing it, Dana would fire that referee's ass. That's essentially what happens in most NJPW matches where there is a clear heel side, except it's been happening for YEARS and New Japan hasn't done sh*t about it (except for those few months where they chose to selectively enforce the rules to only target Tongans, which is something that in and of itself should have caused some sort of kayfabe investigation).
At least in WWE's case- in this one case- they are messing up because they're thinking too hard, rather than places like New Japan or ROH which don't think enough.

Are we going to bring in a legit sport where refs are there to protect people's lives? Because in that case, WWE refs aren't anal enough either, I see tons of wrestlers keeping locks past the 5 count, I see TONS of close fist punches, tons of double team moves, TONS of times when the ref goes out of the ring to tell the wrestlers to go back instead of counting them out.
This is pro wrestling, sports entertainment, you can suspend your disbelief and think that refs have discretion, you can believe that WWE can't fire their refs for some Union reason, but can you do the same to argue why every year, people don't just wait and take out #30 entrant of the rumble?
I don't think I've heard WWE bring up the closed-fist rule in a long time so it might not even be a thing there.
WWE referees actually call the matches like a shoot, and as a result, they rarely do sh*t like follow the wrestlers around and yell at them rather than counting them out, and when they do, they don't yell more than once. Compare that to New Japan where the referee just follows the guys around yelling at them for three minutes even though it's clear they're not going to listen. Then he sees someone attacking someone with a chair and impotently yells at the guy to stop. Then he goes back to the ring. Eventually the heel also comes back, and only then does the referee begin to enforce the rules again so that the babyface can make his big dramatic dash to the ring to make it just in the nick of time.

Your "referees have a union" theory doesn't work because we saw John Cone get fired for a clearly questionable case of a fast count and none of the other referees said anything and we never heard anything about a kayfabe lawsuit.

But you're missing the point entirely. Sure, I could come up with a rule for why people don't beat the #30 entrant up every year. Maybe only one person, randomly pre-selected person is allowed to beat someone up and take their spot and this year was Nia's lucky year. And maybe that rule isn't even in effect every year (like how sometimes they have 90 second intervals and sometimes its two minutes). Or maybe it is in effect every year, but the years where it doens't happen the person who got the "beat someone up and take his spot" power was someone who wasn't confident he/she could beat the #30 person up, like an announcer or an interviewer or a cameraman. Or maybe it was a wrestler who was injured, or just too tired after his/her own match. And yes, I know that example is ridiculous, and that's exactly my point.

The logical problems and lack of intelligent follow-up to Royal Rumble rules shenanigans, just like New Japan's ridiculous non-enforcement of its own rules, is JUST PLAIN SH*TTY STORYTELLING, and IT'S NOT THE AUDIENCE'S JOB TO FILL IN THE HOLES/FIX THE STORYTELLER'S SH*TTY STORYTELLING!

Suspension of disbelief has no place in that conversation (unless you're using Tolkein's definition, but Tolkein's definition defines the reader having to rely on suspension of disbelief as an inherent failure by the storyteller to create an internally consistent universe). Suspension of disbelief has to do with limitations placed on the storytelling medium by that medium's own inherent nature. Suspension of disbelief is for asking why wrestlers don't get black eyes if they're getting punched in the face all the time, or why wrestlers are often able to last so long in submission holds that would do a lot of damage as a shoot. Stuff for which the only explanation is "because they're not actually hurting each other" (i.e. an answer that ties into the inherent nature of the art form) It is NOT AN EXCUSE FOR SH*TTY STORYTELLING.





So why do Kenny and the Bucks and Cody do comedy in ROH main events? Or RevPro main events? Those are promotions that claim to be the top promotions in their region.
And WWE also tells you they're "Sports Entertainment" and not professional wrestling, so by your own logic how can you get upset about their bad comedy?
I'm not defending ROH or RevPro, i don't watch them, they're as bad as WWE if that is the case. But for that matter, Omega and the Bucks, they do comedy, but they also win, and when they need to get serious, they do. I've never seen comedy in a Kenny Omega title match, nor have i ever seen Omega or the Bucks dance their way away from being eliminated from the second biggest match in the world.
No. But they'll start doing comedy five minutes after being serious in a main event, like they do in PWG. You've created for yourself a circular explanation where PWG is allowed to get away with everything just because they've never claimed to be super-important, which is basically praising them for a lack of ambition,... which is silly because the idea that they don't try to put out great shows is ludicrous.


They can call themselves honkey dory carny show, we all know it's the same shit, they claim to be THE place to be and to have the most prestigious championship in the universe, week in week out, WWE has people not care when they get eliminated, when they lose titles, because they just like to have fun. As stupid as comedy can get, you should never portray a loser as happy or not care about losing. The only think i agree with JBL, if you're not here to win the championship, then what the hell are you doing here?
I still don't see how not caring after you lose is any worse than temporarily ceasing to care in the middle of a match just to do your comedy spot. Hell, I'd even argue that it's better because at least I can argue that pretending to not care is just NJW's coping mechanism.

[cero2k]

I don't have a problem with positive stereotypes in wrestling when they play to someone's personality well. The Street Profits work so well because they are fun guys. And I don't have a problem with one of WWE's first Chinese wrestlers who actually happens to be a martial artist doing a martial arts gimmick. Her dressing in a stereotypical Chinese outfit sets her apart from the other people doing martial arts gimmicks in the company (Conti, Jaoude who wear gis with the Brazilian flag on them. I'm saying that if you have a problem with Conti, you should have a problem with the others as well.
exactly, the prophets are fun guys, not fun black guys. Xia Li you're not describing her as a martial artist, you're describing her as a chinese martial artist. When I see Conti, or Riddle, or Bailey, or Suzuki, nothing in their attires tells me their nationality, it just tells me these guys are martial artists, Ospreay has tons of flags in his attire, that doesn't represent him as all nationalities. Xia is dressed as the sexy cartoon version of a chinese, not a martial artist.

I don't think we have anywhere near enough evidence yet to call her a spot monkey. You've seen two gifs of her and two spots in a Royal Rumble. Maybe wait to see her in some actual matches first.
but i've already seen her two moves

You haven't seen it in New Japan? Dude... it happens ALL THE TIME. Basically every Suzuki-Gun or Bullet Club match has this happen, 90% of the matches will have their BS enforcement of the count-out rule, which they clearly do just to let guys do spots on the outside, then only start enforcing the rule again so we get can the spot that is there stupid count-out tease. Okada and Omega had at least one spot where a referee clearly ignored one putting the other through a table or throwing a table at him and hitting him.
let me clarify, i hadn't seen the one for the rumble bully their way back into it.

It is in no way similar to the Gail Kim thing. Tessa attacked a referee and GOT DQed to retain her title. To stop her from doing this in the future, TNA then assigned Tessa's next title defense to a referee who was less fragile. That's telling a story. In New Japan the referees never do anything and the promotion does not take any steps whatsoever to prevent further abuse and ensure compliance with the rules.
A referee's cadence on a count-out can be left up to his or her discretion, but that's because the rule is that you have a "ten-count" or a "twenty-count" or whatever on the floor. The referee's cadence in a pinfall should not vary noticeably from referee to referee because the rules stipulate that a pinfall is "three seconds," not a "three-count."
Excessive violence DQs (and the similar call of a referee stoppage) are left up to the referee's discretion because they are inherently opinion-based matters (and even with an excessive violence DQ, the referee should be visibly warning the wrestler first, preferably multiple times).
Not getting out of the ring by a five-count after a tag is something I'd like to see referees enforce a lot more often, but that, too, is a "five-count" not "five seconds" so a referee not counting at all is just a referee ignoring the rules, not making a judgment call with any legal basis.
And yes, they should be fired. They are willingly failing to live up to their responsibilities to do their best to ensure fair competition and ensure the safety of the athletes.
Tessa bullied the refs for months, gail kim came up until the third match with Taya, but anyway, this is beyond the point. You are too fixated with rule enforcing to the line.
So you're saying that because they're "something-count", referees can have different pacing, including counting every minute. Tiger Hattori can take 3 minutes between the 2-count and 3rd-count.



I don't think I've heard WWE bring up the closed-fist rule in a long time so it might not even be a thing there.
It doesn't mean it's not there and IT SHOULD BE ENFORCED to the line.


But you're missing the point entirely. Sure, I could come up with a rule for why people don't beat the #30 entrant up every year. Maybe only one person, randomly pre-selected person is allowed to beat someone up and take their spot and this year was Nia's lucky year. And maybe that rule isn't even in effect every year (like how sometimes they have 90 second intervals and sometimes its two minutes). Or maybe it is in effect every year, but the years where it doens't happen the person who got the "beat someone up and take his spot" power was someone who wasn't confident he/she could beat the #30 person up, like an announcer or an interviewer or a cameraman. Or maybe it was a wrestler who was injured, or just too tired after his/her own match. And yes, I know that example is ridiculous, and that's exactly my point.

The logical problems and lack of intelligent follow-up to Royal Rumble rules shenanigans, just like New Japan's ridiculous non-enforcement of its own rules, is JUST PLAIN SH*TTY STORYTELLING, and IT'S NOT THE AUDIENCE'S JOB TO FILL IN THE HOLES/FIX THE STORYTELLER'S SH*TTY STORYTELLING!

Suspension of disbelief has no place in that conversation (unless you're using Tolkein's definition, but Tolkein's definition defines the reader having to rely on suspension of disbelief as an inherent failure by the storyteller to create an internally consistent universe). Suspension of disbelief has to do with limitations placed on the storytelling medium by that medium's own inherent nature. Suspension of disbelief is for asking why wrestlers don't get black eyes if they're getting punched in the face all the time, or why wrestlers are often able to last so long in submission holds that would do a lot of damage as a shoot. Stuff for which the only explanation is "because they're not actually hurting each other" (i.e. an answer that ties into the inherent nature of the art form) It is NOT AN EXCUSE FOR SH*TTY STORYTELLING.

no no no, you're missing the point, the problem with WWE is not that there is no rule to stop people from attacking #30, it has been an unwritten rule for 30 years, the problem is that WWE OPENED UP THE LOOPHOLE so that there is now a need for that rule and they are simply going to ignore it. A promotion having issues with their enforcement or even loop holes is ok, they can make stories out of it, a hundred "unsafe work environment" stories we've seen, but I NEED to see people take advantage of those loops, I shouldn't have to ask my self why my wrestlers are stupid and not taking advantage of the loop hole that I as a fan clearly saw.
Whether you like it or not, at least Harold Meij came out during the G1 and kicked out the Bullet Club and Red Shoes at one point was fed up and DQed people here and there, is it optimal for you, no, but there WAS something. I can assure you that we will never get any enforcement of the Jax loophool, or the Kofi loophole, just like we've never been explained that Hawkins was eliminated in 2016-17 when the match ended, because records still show that he wasn't eliminated that year.

refs and officials can be tricked, taken advantage off, but I should never never ask myself, why are these wrestlers so fucking stupid. You're right, WWE should cover their asses, but they don't, because kid spots are more important to them.

No. But they'll start doing comedy five minutes after being serious in a main event, like they do in PWG. You've created for yourself a circular explanation where PWG is allowed to get away with everything just because they've never claimed to be super-important, which is basically praising them for a lack of ambition,... which is silly because the idea that they don't try to put out great shows is ludicrous.
There is big difference in taking yourself serious and trying to be the embodiment of Lance Storm as a promotion. PWG has been so ambitions that they are legit the top indie in the country without having to suck up to any promotion, without having to jerk themselves over the fans telling them this is the greatest thing. The fans and the wrestling do that for them. You have a very personal preference that if nothing is taken serious and to the line, it's bad, but i'm sorry, that is a unique perspective that only you and Cornette share. In PWG, even in the BOLA exhibition match, wrestlers always show that they want to win and they react to losing.

I still don't see how not caring after you lose is any worse than temporarily ceasing to care in the middle of a match just to do your comedy spot. Hell, I'd even argue that it's better because at least I can argue that pretending to not care is just NJW's coping mechanism.

Comedy wrestling IS a wrestling style, comedy can have some meaning to the match, comedy can mean that a wrestler is extra confident or over his head or trying to get in their opponent's head, comedy can play many things during a match, but if after the match you don't care and laugh a loss off, then that is just that, the wrestler fighting for a title shot doesn't care about wins and loses.

[Big Red Machine]

I don't have a problem with positive stereotypes in wrestling when they play to someone's personality well. The Street Profits work so well because they are fun guys. And I don't have a problem with one of WWE's first Chinese wrestlers who actually happens to be a martial artist doing a martial arts gimmick. Her dressing in a stereotypical Chinese outfit sets her apart from the other people doing martial arts gimmicks in the company (Conti, Jaoude who wear gis with the Brazilian flag on them. I'm saying that if you have a problem with Conti, you should have a problem with the others as well.
exactly, the prophets are fun guys, not fun black guys. Xia Li you're not describing her as a martial artist, you're describing her as a chinese martial artist. When I see Conti, or Riddle, or Bailey, or Suzuki, nothing in their attires tells me their nationality, it just tells me these guys are martial artists, Ospreay has tons of flags in his attire, that doesn't represent him as all nationalities. Xia is dressed as the sexy cartoon version of a chinese, not a martial artist.
I'm saying in Xia's case it's important because they are trying to push (and they recruited her with the pitch) that she is one of the first Chinese wrestlers in WWE history. I see no difference between Xia's outfit, the Street Profit's gold chains, and Lacey Evans' big hats. All are stereotypical hallmarks of their culture. No one has a problem with Karen Q and she does the same gimmick on the indies. No one objects to Mia Yim dressing like a gang member. No one objects to Jack Gallagher being a stereotypical "Englishman." I think treating a shoot Chinese martial artist whose gimmick is that she dresses in a traditional Chinese manner and does martial arts like she's f*cking Kai-en-tai is completely ridiculous.

I don't think we have anywhere near enough evidence yet to call her a spot monkey. You've seen two gifs of her and two spots in a Royal Rumble. Maybe wait to see her in some actual matches first.
but i've already seen her two moves
You're a Young Bucks fan. Someone being a two-move spot-monkey has never stopped you before.
Tanahashi as been wrestling for close to twenty years and he does the same f*cking match every night based around the same five moves (six moves if we're counting "sell the knee" as a move). Seems tome like Kacy is on pace to become an all-time legend.

You haven't seen it in New Japan? Dude... it happens ALL THE TIME. Basically every Suzuki-Gun or Bullet Club match has this happen, 90% of the matches will have their BS enforcement of the count-out rule, which they clearly do just to let guys do spots on the outside, then only start enforcing the rule again so we get can the spot that is there stupid count-out tease. Okada and Omega had at least one spot where a referee clearly ignored one putting the other through a table or throwing a table at him and hitting him.
let me clarify, i hadn't seen the one for the rumble bully their way back into it.
And what I'm saying is that at best there is no difference between the two situations (and, if we're being technical about it, at least WWE referees are following the rules while New Japan referees are blatantly letting people break them). Why is "a wrestler may not hit an opponent with a foreign object" or "a wrestler may not put his/her hands on a referee" or count-outs a less important rule to enforce than "if you get thrown over the top rope to the floor you are eliminated from the Royal Rumble" (and especially when "if you get thrown over the top rope to the floor you are eliminated from the Royal Rumble" isn't even the actual rule! The actual rule requires both of your feet to touch the floor, which is how WWE is enforcing it)?

It is in no way similar to the Gail Kim thing. Tessa attacked a referee and GOT DQed to retain her title. To stop her from doing this in the future, TNA then assigned Tessa's next title defense to a referee who was less fragile. That's telling a story. In New Japan the referees never do anything and the promotion does not take any steps whatsoever to prevent further abuse and ensure compliance with the rules.
A referee's cadence on a count-out can be left up to his or her discretion, but that's because the rule is that you have a "ten-count" or a "twenty-count" or whatever on the floor. The referee's cadence in a pinfall should not vary noticeably from referee to referee because the rules stipulate that a pinfall is "three seconds," not a "three-count."
Excessive violence DQs (and the similar call of a referee stoppage) are left up to the referee's discretion because they are inherently opinion-based matters (and even with an excessive violence DQ, the referee should be visibly warning the wrestler first, preferably multiple times).
Not getting out of the ring by a five-count after a tag is something I'd like to see referees enforce a lot more often, but that, too, is a "five-count" not "five seconds" so a referee not counting at all is just a referee ignoring the rules, not making a judgment call with any legal basis.
And yes, they should be fired. They are willingly failing to live up to their responsibilities to do their best to ensure fair competition and ensure the safety of the athletes.
Tessa bullied the refs for months, gail kim came up until the third match with Taya, but anyway, this is beyond the point.
She bullying them is different than pushing them down, and when she specifically attacked a ref to escape with the belt via DQ in a title defense, management stepped in.

You are too fixated with rule enforcing to the line.
The premise of pro wrestling is that it's a sport. Therefore the rules must be enforced. Period. Not enforcing the rules makes it look fake, which makes immersion harder. The more we're reminded that what we're watching isn't real, the harder it is to care about results or character journeys or anything. A good drama doesn't ever remind you that it's fake. Even one set in prehistoric times or the distant future. If a referee in a sport let people get away with blatant fouls in front of him/her all the time, that person would be fired. If a competitor puts his/her hands on the referee that's an ejection. Even accidentally making contact with a referee during an argument will get you ejected in the NHL, MLB and elsewhere. If wrestling is going to be a kayfabe sport then it needs to function like a sport. That's the premise.
If the rules aren't enforced then how is a heel supposed to get heat by breaking them? At that point it's not the heel getting heat but rather the babyface being an idiot for not getting weapons, too.


So you're saying that because they're "something-count", referees can have different pacing, including counting every minute. Tiger Hattori can take 3 minutes between the 2-count and 3rd-count.
I think that'd be a little ridiculous, but technically yes (so long as he takes three minutes between each and every count). This is something that would fall into the same category as the Kofi spot. It's abuse of the rules, but it is still technically within the rules. It's not something that should be done, but it is technically legal.
But that example won't help you defend New Japan at all because that's not how any of their referees count, which we nkow because we hear them start at one only once the necessary spot has been completed.



I don't think I've heard WWE bring up the closed-fist rule in a long time so it might not even be a thing there.
It doesn't mean it's not there and IT SHOULD BE ENFORCED to the line.
I agree. If the rules have changed, they should tell us. But that doesn't mean the rules haven't changed. This is the same company with the "secret" one-save rule, remember?


But you're missing the point entirely. Sure, I could come up with a rule for why people don't beat the #30 entrant up every year. Maybe only one person, randomly pre-selected person is allowed to beat someone up and take their spot and this year was Nia's lucky year. And maybe that rule isn't even in effect every year (like how sometimes they have 90 second intervals and sometimes its two minutes). Or maybe it is in effect every year, but the years where it doens't happen the person who got the "beat someone up and take his spot" power was someone who wasn't confident he/she could beat the #30 person up, like an announcer or an interviewer or a cameraman. Or maybe it was a wrestler who was injured, or just too tired after his/her own match. And yes, I know that example is ridiculous, and that's exactly my point.

The logical problems and lack of intelligent follow-up to Royal Rumble rules shenanigans, just like New Japan's ridiculous non-enforcement of its own rules, is JUST PLAIN SH*TTY STORYTELLING, and IT'S NOT THE AUDIENCE'S JOB TO FILL IN THE HOLES/FIX THE STORYTELLER'S SH*TTY STORYTELLING!

Suspension of disbelief has no place in that conversation (unless you're using Tolkein's definition, but Tolkein's definition defines the reader having to rely on suspension of disbelief as an inherent failure by the storyteller to create an internally consistent universe). Suspension of disbelief has to do with limitations placed on the storytelling medium by that medium's own inherent nature. Suspension of disbelief is for asking why wrestlers don't get black eyes if they're getting punched in the face all the time, or why wrestlers are often able to last so long in submission holds that would do a lot of damage as a shoot. Stuff for which the only explanation is "because they're not actually hurting each other" (i.e. an answer that ties into the inherent nature of the art form) It is NOT AN EXCUSE FOR SH*TTY STORYTELLING.

no no no, you're missing the point, the problem with WWE is not that there is no rule to stop people from attacking #30, it has been an unwritten rule for 30 years, the problem is that WWE OPENED UP THE LOOPHOLE so that there is now a need for that rule and they are simply going to ignore it. A promotion having issues with their enforcement or even loop holes is ok, they can make stories out of it, a hundred "unsafe work environment" stories we've seen, but I NEED to see people take advantage of those loops, I shouldn't have to ask my self why my wrestlers are stupid and not taking advantage of the loop hole that I as a fan clearly saw.
Whether you like it or not, at least Harold Meij came out during the G1 and kicked out the Bullet Club and Red Shoes at one point was fed up and DQed people here and there, is it optimal for you, no, but there WAS something. I can assure you that we will never get any enforcement of the Jax loophool, or the Kofi loophole, just like we've never been explained that Hawkins was eliminated in 2016-17 when the match ended, because records still show that he wasn't eliminated that year.

Again... it's sh*tty storytelling. But just because WWE sucks at telling stories doesn't give anyone else a free pass for their own suckiness.
Harold Meij ordering Bullet Club DQed is "something" in the same way that trying to dry flooded basement with one paper towel is "something." What does it say about Harold Meij that he decided to put a stop to the Tongans interfering, but made no effort curb Yano and Suzuki-Gun's constant cheating? Is he a racist who hates Tongans?
And it didn't even lead to anything! It caused a bunch of DQs in the G1 that everyone hated... and now they're STILL cheating and Harold Meij doesn't give a sh*t. There was no story there because nothing ever came of it. It didn't serve any purpose.
The Kofi thing HAS a clear explanation. We can not like it and think the rule the should be changed, but the explanation is right there in front of you and they make sure you can't miss it.
The "attack #30 thing" is, in fact, sh*tty storytelling, and I highly doubt they'll ever explain it or make a storyline out of it. Just like I doubt they'll ever actually explain how the Superstar Shake-Up kayfabe works, or NXT call-ups, or why people can just show up on the other show sometimes, or any of the other numerous problems that riddle WWE TV. But I hold EVERY company to that same standard. Just because it's not as bad as WWE doens't mean it's not still bad.




refs and officials can be tricked, taken advantage off, but I should never never ask myself, why are these wrestlers so fucking stupid. You're right, WWE should cover their asses, but they don't, because kid spots are more important to them.
Except in New Japan (and all of the other places that do it) it's not an instance of referees getting "tricked." It's sh*t happening RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE REFEREE'S FACE AND THE REFEREE DOESN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT. How is blatantly ignoring the rules because grown-ups apparently like weapons but no DQs and count-outs somehow better than allowing someone to exploit an already-present loophole that happens to be what you have derisively termed a "kid spot." Don't forget that we all went gaga for these until they started to get a little too ridiculous.

Yes, you should not have to ask yourself why these wrestlers are so stupid. But a viewer also shouldn't have to ask himself/herself why management isn't acting in a logical and intelligent manner, either. Why do they keep letting people screw up their matches with cheating and interference instead of booking a rematch with a stipulation meant to prevent such a thing from happening in the future? Why do they continue to employ referees who blatantly disregard the rules, legitimatizing the result of their sporting contests and putting the wrestlers in a situation where the risk of injury is far greater than it should be because they allow people to use illegal weapons? (And that's just two from New Japan. I could give you a bunch more from New Japan, ROH, TNA, WWE, etc.)
Similarly, we should not have to ask why characters are not acting in a logical and consistent manner (see: Bullet Club Civil War). Or why commentators are not being intellectually consistent (see Young, Renee, or Romero, Rocky, or any Smackdown announcer when Shane is involved). ALL of these are problems. To single out just one while ignoring the others is wrong.




No. But they'll start doing comedy five minutes after being serious in a main event, like they do in PWG. You've created for yourself a circular explanation where PWG is allowed to get away with everything just because they've never claimed to be super-important, which is basically praising them for a lack of ambition,... which is silly because the idea that they don't try to put out great shows is ludicrous.
There is big difference in taking yourself serious and trying to be the embodiment of Lance Storm as a promotion. PWG has been so ambitions that they are legit the top indie in the country without having to suck up to any promotion, without having to jerk themselves over the fans telling them this is the greatest thing. The fans and the wrestling do that for them. You have a very personal preference that if nothing is taken serious and to the line, it's bad, but i'm sorry, that is a unique perspective that only you and Cornette share. In PWG, even in the BOLA exhibition match, wrestlers always show that they want to win and they react to losing.
PWG got to where they are by being too small to bother ROH and TNA and staying out of the ROH vs. Gabe fight so that they could be the only place with any sort of name value where you could see an ROH guy vs. a Gabe guy (it's no coincidence that their rise happened at a time when IWA-MS was all but defunct, and when CZW was in the middle of major turmoil). They also got there by just booking matches rather than trying to tell more than one story at a time, and at the beginning of their big rise, they made their world title mean next to nothing with sh*t title reigns. They also heavily piggy-backed off of ROH storylines (Steen vs. Generico, Steen vs. Davey). They are also massively helped by the fact that they cut back to so few shows a year so they could just spend their money on fly-ins. They're the "top indie" for people who don't care about the thing that pro wrestling is based on- storylines. ANYONE with the money could book PWG. It takes actual talent to tell stories.
And PWG doens't have to jerk themselves and tell the fans that they're the greatest thing ever because they've got Dave Meltzer in the front row with his notepad in one hand and his dick in the other to do that for them.

WWE has also never talked themselves up like they're the Lance Storm of wrestling promotion. EVOLVE does that. New Japan does that. ROH did so at times as well. Even CZW used to try to make themselves out to be the deathmatch version of all-serious wrestling. But the same argument that you use to say that WWE should treat the Royal Rumble that way applies just as much to any title match in PWG.
"Showing that you want to win" has to be a constant throughout the whole match. The moment you turn it off to do a comedy spot, it's gone forever because any attempt to turn it back on exposes it as fake.

Cornette and I are clearly not the only two people who think this way. Even Shane Hagadorn, who hates Cornette's guts, thinks this way. Don Callis and Paul Lazenby and Lance Storm and Mikey Whipwreck all think this way. if you look at the stuff he books, Triple H pretty clearly thinks this way. Steve Austin thinks this way. Gabe Sapolsky thinks this way. Bryan Danielson thinks this way. Les Thatcher thinks this way. Bryan Alvarez thinks this way. Wade Keller and Bruce Mitchell think this way. Jerry Jarrett thinks this way. Christian Michael Jakobi thinks this way. WALTER thinks this way. From what we're hearing, Dean Ambrose certainly seems to think this way. Michael Elgin seems to think this way. The massive turnover in ROH crowds during the Bullet Club of Honor era seems to indicate that a lot of people think this way.
Even Dave Meltzer thinks this way when his favorite indie promotion isn't involved.




I still don't see how not caring after you lose is any worse than temporarily ceasing to care in the middle of a match just to do your comedy spot. Hell, I'd even argue that it's better because at least I can argue that pretending to not care is just NJW's coping mechanism.

Comedy wrestling IS a wrestling style, comedy can have some meaning to the match, comedy can mean that a wrestler is extra confident or over his head or trying to get in their opponent's head, comedy can play many things during a match, but if after the match you don't care and laugh a loss off, then that is just that, the wrestler fighting for a title shot doesn't care about wins and loses.
And stopping caring if you win to cooperate with your opponent for a comedy spot also shows that you don't care if you win because it's all fake.
There is a far cry between the comedy you're describing here (like a Colt Cabana type of thing) and the CHIKARA style of comedy or the PWG "everyone stick your finger up someone's ass and we'll all pretend to be stuck" comedy. I have no problem with Colt Cabana-style comedy. Even early on within a title match, because it's Colt trying to psych someone out. I have a major problem with slo-mo stuff or PWG stuff if it's not confined to a purely comedy match.

[e-moose]

The 2020 WWE Women'z Royal Rumble:

- Each competitor comez down the aisle with friendz on hand to help out by beating up legal rumble opponents outside the ring, since this iz legal.

- Each competitor refrainz from ever entering the ring, becauze entering the ring significantly increasez the chance of elimination, since this iz legal.

- Az we approach the #30 entrant, a huge brawl occurz backstage between all WWE women who were not scheduled to compete in the event, for the right to enter themselvez into the match az the... #31? 30? ...competitor, since this iz legal.

Everybody stayz outside the ring and whoever haz come out with the most friendz to back them up renderz all the competition unable to compete. Then the last competitor to not be hauled out on a stretcher enterz the ring and iz declared the winner, granted that Hornswaggle doezn't wreck it.