cero2k wrote: ↑Aug 8th, '19, 12:01

Thelone wrote: ↑Aug 7th, '19, 15:08 Yes, you can say that the business always had top stars in key positions who brought people they knew to work with, but this is also what lead to their downfall most of the time. It could also create a negative image because outsiders might think that they'll never go anywhere if they're not buddies with Omega/the Bucks/Cody/Brandi. I mean, SHAWN SPEARS is getting this massive push despite being an almost 40yo jobber who spent close to ten years in developmental and never got anywhere because he's a good friend of the guy he's feuding with. You could easily have done the same storyline with Cody calling MJF "a decent prospect" and kinda shrugging him off.

But Shawn Spears is killing it! Just because someone completely missuses you somewhere else doesn't mean you're done for, because if that was the case, Samoa Joe wouldn't be the best heel in WWE. Or Jay Lethal a champion in ROH. Or Juice Robinson a top contender in NJPW. MJF will have his due when they're ready, and it will be great. why build 2 when you can build 3?

I think "killing it" is quite the exaggeration. He's fine, but he's not someone anyone is going to get excited about, especially before he proves himself in the ring.

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Aug 8th, '19, 18:18

I think "killing it" is quite the exaggeration. He's fine, but he's not someone anyone is going to get excited about, especially before he proves himself in the ring.

he's fighting Cody Rhodes, i'm not looking nor expecting a 4 star match or higher, this is the feud that I like for the drama and it's been good. I like Tully Blanchard's inclusion to the fued too

cero2k wrote: ↑Aug 8th, '19, 19:54

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Aug 8th, '19, 18:18

I think "killing it" is quite the exaggeration. He's fine, but he's not someone anyone is going to get excited about, especially before he proves himself in the ring.

he's fighting Cody Rhodes, i'm not looking nor expecting a 4 star match or higher, this is the feud that I like for the drama and it's been good. I like Tully Blanchard's inclusion to the fued too

Tully's inclusion is good, but we know that Cody is going to give himself and his buddy 20+ minutes, and if you can't give me **** in 20+ minutes, you shouldn't be getting 20+ minutes. I do also worry about Cody essentially booking his own little self-important play-world. It's all about him being a Rhodes in some way or another and he's got his best friend there now.
If this match doesn't go well, I wouldn't be shocked if the narrative coming out of this is (rightfully) that Cody is on an ego-trip and uses his last name and the connections it affords him as a smokescreen to cover over a lack of quality. That's basically what he did during his runs in both ROH and TNA, after all, and with the NWA Title. And those runs (particularly the ROH/NWA stuff) showed that Cody is someone who fancies himself as this genius of drama and storytelling, when the reality is that Cody is to Jimmy Jacobs as Special K is to the Hardy Boys. He thinks he's doing this amazing work of art, but has no concept of what it means to take things way too far. He's like Vince Russo thinking his Crash TV style of stuff is the same as ECW.

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Aug 8th, '19, 20:49

Tully's inclusion is good, but we know that Cody is going to give himself and his buddy 20+ minutes, and if you can't give me **** in 20+ minutes, you shouldn't be getting 20+ minutes. I do also worry about Cody essentially booking his own little self-important play-world. It's all about him being a Rhodes in some way or another and he's got his best friend there now.
If this match doesn't go well, I wouldn't be shocked if the narrative coming out of this is (rightfully) that Cody is on an ego-trip and uses his last name and the connections it affords him as a smokescreen to cover over a lack of quality. That's basically what he did during his runs in both ROH and TNA, after all, and with the NWA Title. And those runs (particularly the ROH/NWA stuff) showed that Cody is someone who fancies himself as this genius of drama and storytelling, when the reality is that Cody is to Jimmy Jacobs as Special K is to the Hardy Boys. He thinks he's doing this amazing work of art, but has no concept of what it means to take things way too far. He's like Vince Russo thinking his Crash TV style of stuff is the same as ECW.

that is the sentiment going with both Cody and Brandi, but they still haven't fully done it. Personally, if Cody vs Dustin ended up being so good with so basic wrestling and mostly working the drama, I think Cody can do it again

cero2k wrote: ↑Aug 8th, '19, 21:34

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Aug 8th, '19, 20:49

Tully's inclusion is good, but we know that Cody is going to give himself and his buddy 20+ minutes, and if you can't give me **** in 20+ minutes, you shouldn't be getting 20+ minutes. I do also worry about Cody essentially booking his own little self-important play-world. It's all about him being a Rhodes in some way or another and he's got his best friend there now.
If this match doesn't go well, I wouldn't be shocked if the narrative coming out of this is (rightfully) that Cody is on an ego-trip and uses his last name and the connections it affords him as a smokescreen to cover over a lack of quality. That's basically what he did during his runs in both ROH and TNA, after all, and with the NWA Title. And those runs (particularly the ROH/NWA stuff) showed that Cody is someone who fancies himself as this genius of drama and storytelling, when the reality is that Cody is to Jimmy Jacobs as Special K is to the Hardy Boys. He thinks he's doing this amazing work of art, but has no concept of what it means to take things way too far. He's like Vince Russo thinking his Crash TV style of stuff is the same as ECW.

that is the sentiment going with both Cody and Brandi, but they still haven't fully done it. Personally, if Cody vs Dustin ended up being so good with so basic wrestling and mostly working the drama, I think Cody can do it again

So do I. The problem is that based off of his track record in ROH and the NWA, it usually takes about five or six tries before he manages to do it again. That's not a good batting average.

Alright, let's see.

This

It's wrestling, it's fake anyway.

and this

Tournaments don't need faces and heels, especially when you tell your fans you're preparing a more sports-like product.

just don't work together.

If you want to be sports-like, you can't have hadoken spots/horrendous comedy/librarians/shitty indy schtick in your program. If we wanna look at Page's run so far from a serious sport point of view, he "beat" a bunch of tomato cans in that awful battle royale, beat three of those a second time, then had the hardest time dispatching another one. Meanwhile, Jericho beat another high-ranker in barely more time than Page took to beat KIP SABIAN. You can also add this ridiculous "win two matches to be bye for one" deal.

Just because they do press conferences in front of a sponsor wall doesn't mean this is more sports then entertainement.

cero2k wrote: ↑Aug 8th, '19, 12:01They're all popular talent with the fans right now and they can all carry themselves good enough for what their position in the company is. Stunt hasn't even fought, we don't know how he is even going to be used, but if we've seen Rey Mysterio defeat Big Show, and Mascarida Dorada fight big dudes, and Ivelisse fight Mil Muertes, and Seth Rollins defeat Brock in under 5 minutes, and Bryan Danielson submit Batista, how is Marko Stunt now not believable? It's wrestling, it's fake anyway

I'll add weight classes if you wanna be more sports-like.

So something didn't worked as hoped in their very FIRST show, big deal. And we don't know what the tournament even looks like, we don't know all the teams, and if there are no heels, then maybe that's how you create them. Tournaments don't need faces and heels, especially when you tell your fans you're preparing a more sports-like product.

Going out of a limb here (except not really), but we'll have the five teams we saw so far, Dark Order entering in the second round and one last team so you can complete the first round (either an OWE team or whoever will join Jericho in that TV main event if it's not just Dark Order or Lucha Brothers).

I'm just gonna go and put this under 'conspiracy theory'. Aside from signing the Stardom roster who already kinda works with ROH, or Tessa, I don't know what you expect for the women's roster here. They're all solid wrestlers and there really is no reason why you can't have more than one Japanese girl, or 7.

You did see how terrible the booking has been so far, right? We have a monster heel who can't win matches, not-Bayley with her slasher smile, Allie who just reverts back to the alpha bitch she was a few years ago (before her Impact run) as soon as the bell rings, Stephanie Rhodes as the most important person in the division, Bates who's horrendous as a heel because she can't lead a match to save her life, Sakazaki as the brave smiling babyface, Britt Yankem DDS and the Literal Assassin (ok not really). The other girls have not been introduced properly yet.

There are versions of this roster that could work despite the lack of star power, but none of them involve those current characters.

But Shawn Spears is killing it! Just because someone completely missuses you somewhere else doesn't mean you're done for, because if that was the case, Samoa Joe wouldn't be the best heel in WWE. Or Jay Lethal a champion in ROH. Or Juice Robinson a top contender in NJPW. MJF will have his due when they're ready, and it will be great. why build 2 when you can build 3?

He really isn't, and I'd say WWE used him accordingly. This guy would have been canned years ago if it wasn't for the "Perfect 10" gimmick. He really is just a good hand : a guy who can have a watchable match against the biggest stiff in the world, but is lacking in just about everything else, hence Tully to be his manager/advisor/whatever. People are acting like he's Cesaro when he really isn't.

Thelone wrote: ↑Aug 9th, '19, 07:39 Alright, let's see.

This

It's wrestling, it's fake anyway.

and this

Tournaments don't need faces and heels, especially when you tell your fans you're preparing a more sports-like product.

just don't work together.

If you want to be sports-like, you can't have hadoken spots/horrendous comedy/librarians/shitty indy schtick in your program. If we wanna look at Page's run so far from a serious sport point of view, he "beat" a bunch of tomato cans in that awful battle royale, beat three of those a second time, then had the hardest time dispatching another one. Meanwhile, Jericho beat another high-ranker in barely more time than Page took to beat KIP SABIAN. You can also add this ridiculous "win two matches to be bye for one" deal.

Just because they do press conferences in front of a sponsor wall doesn't mean this is more sports then entertainement.

Of course it works together, that's technically what New Japan is. Being 'sports-like' doesn't mean you emulate the NFL and that we all pretend this one is actually 'real' pro wrestling, hell, sports are more entertainment than entertainment itself. It's 2019, not a single person above the age of 10 should still think that pro wrestling is real, we all know that the librarians just have a character, that the Dark Order are just characters, that Takashi Iizuka wasn't actually crazy, or Taichi doesn't actually sing, that the Undertaker is just an old dude, Demon Balor is Devitt liking to cosplay, and that the Fiend is a fat dude with a Joker mask. Fans can live with that, fans (except Red) can accept that a comedy wrestler like Yano has victories over Naito, White, and Moxley.

The thing that makes wrestling be 'sports-like' is giving importance to wins and loses, and making storylines revolve around titles, personal rivalries, and real life situations that the audience can relate to. Making characters that go beyond good and evil, but actual humans with some weird ass personalities, because sometimes, people connect more to a a singing emperor Taichi than a Tanahashi. We're watching the G1 right now, and the most exciting matches have all been between babyfaces, because it's not about alignment, but clashing personalities, that you achieve with a sports-like product.

I'll accept your criticism on how they picked the contenders to the world title, not because there was comedy in the battle royale, but because both contenders should have gotten an equally hard test to qualify. But all those things happened in their very first show ever. My first time driving, having sex, going to work, I didn't know everything about what I was doing either.

Also, having a Hadouken in a show that actually took place in a video game convention is just smart. It's really no different from Liger's Shotei anyway, it's arguably more credible than a 619 or a Canadian Destroyer. Live fans remember pops, and good pops make memorable moments for those watching on a screen. Contrary to WWE's MO, hometown guys should win for the cheap pops.

Thelone wrote: ↑Aug 9th, '19, 07:39 Going out of a limb here (except not really), but we'll have the five teams we saw so far, Dark Order entering in the second round and one last team so you can complete the first round (either an OWE team or whoever will join Jericho in that TV main event if it's not just Dark Order or Lucha Brothers).

so by default, whoever decides to join Jericho is going to be a heel team, making it two heel teams if that really matters. I don't know where else we talked about this, but it shouldn't be about heels and faces, it should be about the best teams going for the title. moral compasses are irrelevant in tournaments.

Thelone wrote: ↑Aug 9th, '19, 07:39 You did see how terrible the booking has been so far, right? We have a monster heel who can't win matches, not-Bayley with her slasher smile, Allie who just reverts back to the alpha bitch she was a few years ago (before her Impact run) as soon as the bell rings, Stephanie Rhodes as the most important person in the division, Bates who's horrendous as a heel because she can't lead a match to save her life, Sakazaki as the brave smiling babyface, Britt Yankem DDS and the Literal Assassin (ok not really). The other girls have not been introduced properly yet.

There are versions of this roster that could work despite the lack of star power, but none of them involve those current characters.

to each their own then, I think Kylie is a far better Bayley than Bayley. Bea Priestley is one of the better female wrestlers in the indies right now. Riho, Sakazaki, and the rest of the Joshi have been amazing, with these two in particularly getting super over with the fans. Allie and Bates have never been any good really, but it's not like their having botch-fests nor being built as the top of the division. Baker is a solid worker, and having an actual career is a great image for a role model. They may not be the Knockouts or the Stardom roster, but they're a far more solid female roster than WWE and ROH.

Thelone wrote: ↑Aug 9th, '19, 07:39 He really isn't, and I'd say WWE used him accordingly. This guy would have been canned years ago if it wasn't for the "Perfect 10" gimmick. He really is just a good hand : a guy who can have a watchable match against the biggest stiff in the world, but is lacking in just about everything else, hence Tully to be his manager/advisor/whatever. People are acting like he's Cesaro when he really isn't.

No one is acting like he is Cesaro, because he's actually a better talker than Cesaro! Surely you didn't mean wrestling-wise because otherwise people would be judging a wrestler that hasn't had one single one-on-one match in AEW at all. This is actually it, a lot of judgement on a product no one has even seen how it's going to work. Same thing I told Red months ago, you're going in wanting to hate the product, you really don't have to watch it if you don't want to, not watching it is how you get them to fail.

Ooh. Lots if fun stuff here, but I can weigh in until Sunday.

cero2k wrote: ↑Aug 9th, '19, 10:22Of course it works together, that's technically what New Japan is. Being 'sports-like' doesn't mean you emulate the NFL and that we all pretend this one is actually 'real' pro wrestling, hell, sports are more entertainment than entertainment itself. It's 2019, not a single person above the age of 10 should still think that pro wrestling is real, we all know that the librarians just have a character, that the Dark Order are just characters, that Takashi Iizuka wasn't actually crazy, or Taichi doesn't actually sing, that the Undertaker is just an old dude, Demon Balor is Devitt liking to cosplay, and that the Fiend is a fat dude with a Joker mask. Fans can live with that, fans (except Red) can accept that a comedy wrestler like Yano has victories over Naito, White, and Moxley.

Yes, wrestling is "fake", but you don't have to actively show me that it is with pointless comedy spots, bad indy schtick and overly choregraphed/GYSI matches.

The thing that makes wrestling be 'sports-like' is giving importance to wins and loses, and making storylines revolve around titles, personal rivalries, and real life situations that the audience can relate to. Making characters that go beyond good and evil, but actual humans with some weird ass personalities, because sometimes, people connect more to a a singing emperor Taichi than a Tanahashi. We're watching the G1 right now, and the most exciting matches have all been between babyfaces, because it's not about alignment, but clashing personalities, that you achieve with a sports-like product.

So where are all those things in AEW so far? They've barely introduced anyone really to a new audience, which is me for about 90% of that roster for example.

I'll accept your criticism on how they picked the contenders to the world title, not because there was comedy in the battle royale, but because both contenders should have gotten an equally hard test to qualify. But all those things happened in their very first show ever. My first time driving, having sex, going to work, I didn't know everything about what I was doing either.

True, but they didn't try to correct the course afterwards by giving Page some (well, two) solid wins to make you believe that he has a chance against Jericho. When the heel is joking about who you faced and has a valid point at the same time, you messed it up pretty badly.

Also, having a Hadouken in a show that actually took place in a video game convention is just smart. It's really no different from Liger's Shotei anyway, it's arguably more credible than a 619 or a Canadian Destroyer. Live fans remember pops, and good pops make memorable moments for those watching on a screen. Contrary to WWE's MO, hometown guys should win for the cheap pops.

... what?

First, how is an invisible fireball more credible than actual strikes, no matter how convoluted they are? Second, smarks pop for anything nowadays. Is the Best Friends' hugging spot they do in every match memorable because it gets a pop? Is Pentagon's glove throwing spot he does in every match memorable because it gets a pop? Is Nakazawa oiling himself up in every match memorable because it gets a pop? Is... ok, you get the point I'm sure. It's the same thing with moves : they pop for every big move/dive (I'm surprised Excalibur isn't sick of yelling TOPE SUICIDA fifty times on every show), but it doesn't mean they're memorable and/or the crowd is really into the wrestlers who do them.

The only remotely memorable moments so far have been Moxley debuting, Dustin's disgusting bladejob, then loads of garbage from that damn battle royale to the librarians to the subtitles popping out of nowhere during the FftF pre-show to the ending of that show.

so by default, whoever decides to join Jericho is going to be a heel team, making it two heel teams if that really matters. I don't know where else we talked about this, but it shouldn't be about heels and faces, it should be about the best teams going for the title. moral compasses are irrelevant in tournaments.

I'm pretty sure it'll be Dark Order (80%, because he dressed like one of their gimps and they probably feel like they need that rub anyway) or the Lucha Brothers (15%, because he dressed like Pentagon at All In, but is overdone), with the remaining 5% being split between a new team debuting or two singles.

to each their own then, I think Kylie is a far better Bayley than Bayley.

Here's what I saw the first time with Rae :



The fakest, creepiest smile you could imagine. When I'm going "NNNGGGHHH" in front of my screen, you know this is really bad. This isn't the face of a nice, bubbly woman, but a façade of someone who's really thinking "how can I murder those two and get away with it?". Frankly, I would push her as a demented superfan who will put smiles on people's face NO MATTER WHAT IT TAKES.

Bea Priestley is one of the better female wrestlers in the indies right now.

Hey look, I thought she was pretty damn good at first (I never saw her before), but then I learned that she gave Baker a concussion and thought "eh, that happened sometimes", and then I learned that this isn't the first time and saw quite a few botches/reckless spots from her.

Riho, Sakazaki, and the rest of the Joshi have been amazing, with these two in particularly getting super over with the fans.

Call me Britt Baker, but Riho and Sakazaki are interchangeable and not very good in the ring. Shida was hidden in that trios match, but I do vaguely know what she's worth from the few Shimmer shows I saw her in.

Allie and Bates have never been any good really, but it's not like their having botch-fests nor being built as the top of the division.

Bates has always been awful, but this is why they used her as a babyface because she can at least sell a beating and is a sympathetic figure. Allie is so much better as a heel and the contrast is jarring between the happy-go-lucky entrance and her agressive in-ring work full of bitch/mean faces and taunts.

Baker is a solid worker, and having an actual career is a great image for a role model.

Except that isn't a wrestling gimmick. Good for her to be an actual dentist and have a solid exit route in case something goes wrong with her wrestling career, but it doesn't matter in the slightest in the ring. So far, she's an attractive woman who can work... and a dentist, that's it. I have no particular reason to cheer or boo her.

They may not be the Knockouts or the Stardom roster, but they're a far more solid female roster than WWE and ROH.

I'll give you that they're better than WOH (granted, this is a very low bar to clear), but they sure are trying to get the least out of the talent they have like WWE does.

No one is acting like he is Cesaro, because he's actually a better talker than Cesaro! Surely you didn't mean wrestling-wise because otherwise people would be judging a wrestler that hasn't had one single one-on-one match in AEW at all. This is actually it, a lot of judgement on a product no one has even seen how it's going to work. Same thing I told Red months ago, you're going in wanting to hate the product, you really don't have to watch it if you don't want to, not watching it is how you get them to fail.

I have seen Dillinger have numerous matches in NXT, not once did I feel like they were mistreating him. I vividly remember that match he had with Roode at a Takeover that went on forever and with the hot crowd dying quickly after realizing that there was nothing worth getting excited for besides "Perfect 10" and "Glorious". I expect the Cody match to be the same with Spears being just fine and Cody trying to emulate Flair/Triple H when he's really more NXT Bo Dallas without the joke or a hint or irony.

We all came in with our biases, from the superfan who thinks this shit is the greatest thing in the world to people who hate The Elite and what they stand for. Yes, I'm probably nit-picking a lot of those things, but I'm always doing that (ask anyone on the ROH forum) and trying to come up with sensible arguments at the very least. I'll still watch All Out and the first few weeks of TV, but I'll give up if I don't see anything more than PWG on a big budget crossed with a glorified Elite vanity promotion.

Thelone wrote: ↑Aug 11th, '19, 09:04 Yes, wrestling is "fake", but you don't have to actively show me that it is with pointless comedy spots, bad indy schtick and overly choregraphed/GYSI matches.

If basic things like that take you out of the 'reality', then maybe AEW is not for you, nor is WWE, or CMLL, or AAA, or NJPW, or many other promotions.

Thelone wrote: ↑Aug 11th, '19, 09:04 So where are all those things in AEW so far? They've barely introduced anyone really to a new audience, which is me for about 90% of that roster for example.

we are only 3 shows in, what are you expecting with only 3 shows? we're barely getting to know the players, THEY are barely getting to know each other and create those reasons to be happy/mad about. Cody Rhodes even said it, we've only revealed about 40% of our roster.

Thelone wrote: ↑Aug 11th, '19, 09:04True, but they didn't try to correct the course afterwards by giving Page some (well, two) solid wins to make you believe that he has a chance against Jericho. When the heel is joking about who you faced and has a valid point at the same time, you messed it up pretty badly.

Not at all, we all know that Page is leagues below Jericho to begin with, he's being built as an underdog. I wasn't a fan how they selected the contenders, but there is nothing messed up about how they're building each of them.

Thelone wrote: ↑Aug 11th, '19, 09:04 ... what?

First, how is an invisible fireball more credible than actual strikes, no matter how convoluted they are? Second, smarks pop for anything nowadays. Is the Best Friends' hugging spot they do in every match memorable because it gets a pop? Is Pentagon's glove throwing spot he does in every match memorable because it gets a pop? Is Nakazawa oiling himself up in every match memorable because it gets a pop? Is... ok, you get the point I'm sure. It's the same thing with moves : they pop for every big move/dive (I'm surprised Excalibur isn't sick of yelling TOPE SUICIDA fifty times on every show), but it doesn't mean they're memorable and/or the crowd is really into the wrestlers who do them.

The only remotely memorable moments so far have been Moxley debuting, Dustin's disgusting bladejob, then loads of garbage from that damn battle royale to the librarians to the subtitles popping out of nowhere during the FftF pre-show to the ending of that show.

Because it's not an invisible fireball, no one fell to air (which is an actual shaolin technique, but that is beside the issue). You're pairing things that aren't really the same. spots like the Best Friends, Pentagon, moves are all signature things you see in every match, they're indeed not memorable by themselves. the Elite doing a triple hadouken, while dressed as Street Fighter characters, to a video game crowd, that is a unique thing in itself that is not likely to ever happen again. that makes it memorable. Also, don't forget that the smarks that pop for everything are also the smarks that buy tickets and sell out those shows. Serve your masters before trying to invite the neighbors for dinner.

We all remember different things depending who you care for. My bigger memories about the women's matches. I honestly don't remember about 80% of the battle royale because it's a bunch of people that are not even in the company, it was an opener in a pre-match show, but it was the wackiest thing that people can latch on to complain about AEW.

Thelone wrote: ↑Aug 11th, '19, 09:04 I'm pretty sure it'll be Dark Order (80%, because he dressed like one of their gimps and they probably feel like they need that rub anyway) or the Lucha Brothers (15%, because he dressed like Pentagon at All In, but is overdone), with the remaining 5% being split between a new team debuting or two singles.

I have my money on LAX.

Thelone wrote: ↑Aug 11th, '19, 09:04 Here's what I saw the first time with Rae :

The fakest, creepiest smile you could imagine. When I'm going "NNNGGGHHH" in front of my screen, you know this is really bad. This isn't the face of a nice, bubbly woman, but a façade of someone who's really thinking "how can I murder those two and get away with it?". Frankly, I would push her as a demented superfan who will put smiles on people's face NO MATTER WHAT IT TAKES.

when you go 'nnnggghhh' means that you didn't like it, not that it's bad. I just saw someone that is no innocent she wouldn't even know when people are tricking her. Regardless, she had a match an hour later which was the actual impression that I kept, a cutesy chick that can kick your ass.

Thelone wrote: ↑Aug 11th, '19, 09:04 Hey look, I thought she was pretty damn good at first (I never saw her before), but then I learned that she gave Baker a concussion and thought "eh, that happened sometimes", and then I learned that this isn't the first time and saw quite a few botches/reckless spots from her.

That's it!? one concussion and she is a 'living hazard'!? I can't imagine what you think of guys like Dragon Lee or Sheamus

Thelone wrote: ↑Aug 11th, '19, 09:04 Call me Britt Baker, but Riho and Sakazaki are interchangeable and not very good in the ring. Shida was hidden in that trios match, but I do vaguely know what she's worth from the few Shimmer shows I saw her in.

You gonna have to share with me what promotions you're watching if girls like Riho and Sakazaki are 'not very good' in the ring.

Thelone wrote: ↑Aug 11th, '19, 09:04Except that isn't a wrestling gimmick. Good for her to be an actual dentist and have a solid exit route in case something goes wrong with her wrestling career, but it doesn't matter in the slightest in the ring. So far, she's an attractive woman who can work... and a dentist, that's it. I have no particular reason to cheer or boo her.

but hopefully little girls do or will one day, and given the reactions, i think it's just you. Not everyone needs to have a 'gimmick'

Thelone wrote: ↑Aug 11th, '19, 09:04 I'll give you that they're better than WOH (granted, this is a very low bar to clear), but they sure are trying to get the least out of the talent they have like WWE does.

Again, three shows in, I really don't know what you're expecting or looking for. They're obviously building Riho and Baker so far. They've been having great matches that only you seem to dislike. What else is there to get out of them?

cero2k wrote: ↑Aug 7th, '19, 09:22

XIV wrote: ↑Aug 7th, '19, 01:48

My issue is this. If you fill your card with crap that doesn't belong mainstream (people using stapleguns / putting cigarettes out on people's heads / hands-in-pocket wrestlers / people doing stupidly hokey dick flips) people aren't going to take the product seriously, worse than that, sponsors won't take you seriously. Who is going to want their brand associated with that? I know I wouldn't.

Except the cards are not filled with things that don't 'belong' in mainstream, we have no reason to expect staple guns in a weekly show, and you're referring to wrestles who aren't even signed by AEW. Sponsors aren't really an issue, everyone is a corporate pig. If WWE can get away with the shit they do, there's no reason to believe that they won't do it for the Khans too who are far more wealthier than the McMahons.

I don't think this is a fair defense. The only evidence that we have of what will be on AEW's shows is what they show us. You can't pick and choose which of that stuff you think is admissible evidence and which you don't. Even wrestlers who weren't signed by AEW were specifically chosen by AEW to be on these shows. AEW could have gotten any number of "normal" wrestlers, but chose not to. They chose to use these guys.

cero2k wrote: ↑Aug 8th, '19, 12:39

XIV wrote: ↑Aug 8th, '19, 05:54
WWE clearly structure their pre-shows to give space for matches they don't feel belong on the main card... but they also present it like a sports presentation give pre-analysis. That's their intention. Doesn't make me want to buy the show either, in fact.... can everyone just stop doing pre-shows?

This i can agree with, there's no need for 'wrestling' pre-shows. Impact's pre-shows are usually just analysis and replays of important matches that built the shows, that's all that is needed.

Wrestling on a pre-show works if it serves as an effective preview of the action you are likely to see. Proof that you can walk the walk rather than your analysts just talking the talk. EVOLVE, CHIKARA, and others have done a good job with these. AEW definitely hurt themselves with the dumb sh*t on their pre-shows.

cero2k wrote: ↑Aug 8th, '19, 12:39

XIV wrote: ↑Aug 8th, '19, 05:54 How can you say that battle royale for example was anything BUT an attempt at comedy? If it was meant to be serious then the problems are rooted deeper than first imagined.

It's a battle royale, it had a little big of everything, it wasn't all comedy. There's no reason why you can't have some comedy mixed up with serious stuff in such a large match.

It's the wrong type of comedy to be in a match where the winner gets a shot at the world title.

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Aug 12th, '19, 20:11
I don't think this is a fair defense. The only evidence that we have of what will be on AEW's shows is what they show us. You can't pick and choose which of that stuff you think is admissible evidence and which you don't. Even wrestlers who weren't signed by AEW were specifically chosen by AEW to be on these shows. AEW could have gotten any number of "normal" wrestlers, but chose not to. They chose to use these guys.

we can't really speak for the wrestler, you're right that they chose them be it for pops or not, Orange Cassidy is in for example now. But i don't think being chosen is the same as they're going to use them in the main show going forward and build programs around them. Bringing in the boogeyman for a rumble is not bad, making a title storyline with him is.

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Aug 12th, '19, 20:50
Wrestling on a pre-show works if it serves as an effective preview of the action you are likely to see. Proof that you can walk the walk rather than your analysts just talking the talk. EVOLVE, CHIKARA, and others have done a good job with these. AEW definitely hurt themselves with the dumb sh*t on their pre-shows.

it's a preview, but i just don't think anyone who already bought the show is going to decide not to watch it, nor i really think people decide to buy them from the pre-shows. I think they're just extra time to get

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Aug 12th, '19, 20:50 It's the wrong type of comedy to be in a match where the winner gets a shot at the world title.

nothing different from the Royal Rumble really

cero2k wrote: ↑Aug 12th, '19, 22:04

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Aug 12th, '19, 20:11
I don't think this is a fair defense. The only evidence that we have of what will be on AEW's shows is what they show us. You can't pick and choose which of that stuff you think is admissible evidence and which you don't. Even wrestlers who weren't signed by AEW were specifically chosen by AEW to be on these shows. AEW could have gotten any number of "normal" wrestlers, but chose not to. They chose to use these guys.

we can't really speak for the wrestler, you're right that they chose them be it for pops or not, Orange Cassidy is in for example now. But i don't think being chosen is the same as they're going to use them in the main show going forward and build programs around them. Bringing in the boogeyman for a rumble is not bad, making a title storyline with him is.

No. Bringing in the Boogeyman even just for a battle royale is bad.

cero2k wrote: ↑Aug 12th, '19, 22:06

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Aug 12th, '19, 20:50
Wrestling on a pre-show works if it serves as an effective preview of the action you are likely to see. Proof that you can walk the walk rather than your analysts just talking the talk. EVOLVE, CHIKARA, and others have done a good job with these. AEW definitely hurt themselves with the dumb sh*t on their pre-shows.

it's a preview, but i just don't think anyone who already bought the show is going to decide not to watch it, nor i really think people decide to buy them from the pre-shows. I think they're just extra time to get

I think you're probably right for WWE, but even if you're right for every company in the world, I think any smart promotion would treat their pre-show as if people actually were making those decisions because, while they might be a vast minority, I do believe that there are people who still operate this way, and doing things specifically to entice them to take a chance on your show is all upside.

cero2k wrote: ↑Aug 12th, '19, 22:06

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Aug 12th, '19, 20:50 It's the wrong type of comedy to be in a match where the winner gets a shot at the world title.

nothing different from the Royal Rumble really

Just because WWE does something dumb doesn't mean others should get a pass for doing it as well.

Ya know, if Alvarez sees enough in him to work with him, I'm willing to give the ole NWK seal of approval on this guy.

cero2k wrote: ↑Aug 12th, '19, 12:50If basic things like that take you out of the 'reality', then maybe AEW is not for you, nor is WWE, or CMLL, or AAA, or NJPW, or many other promotions.

Well I'm not watching any of those (except AEW right now obviously), so at least I'm consistant.

we are only 3 shows in, what are you expecting with only 3 shows? we're barely getting to know the players, THEY are barely getting to know each other and create those reasons to be happy/mad about. Cody Rhodes even said it, we've only revealed about 40% of our roster.

Well, they could have done less random multi-person matches where no one gets the spotlight for starter. Also, air a few vignettes explaining who X or Y is and and his/her motivations and what sets him/her apart. It doesn't need to be an hour long documentary for each person on the roster, just a quick 1-2 minute deal for the guys you're planning to push.

Not at all, we all know that Page is leagues below Jericho to begin with, he's being built as an underdog. I wasn't a fan how they selected the contenders, but there is nothing messed up about how they're building each of them.

It sure didn't/isn't working listening to the minuscule pop Page got at FftF while Jericho was cheered when he beat him up. This comes off more like Page is the chosen one who got the easy way towards the title match while Jericho is basically the kinda-heel version of Chris Daniels in ROH when he finally got the belt.

Because it's not an invisible fireball, no one fell to air (which is an actual shaolin technique, but that is beside the issue). You're pairing things that aren't really the same. spots like the Best Friends, Pentagon, moves are all signature things you see in every match, they're indeed not memorable by themselves. the Elite doing a triple hadouken, while dressed as Street Fighter characters, to a video game crowd, that is a unique thing in itself that is not likely to ever happen again. that makes it memorable. Also, don't forget that the smarks that pop for everything are also the smarks that buy tickets and sell out those shows. Serve your masters before trying to invite the neighbors for dinner.

The same smarks that won't travel from all over the world for every TV taping. Your last sentence makes sense, but you're gonna need more than just the smark fans to be viable in the long run. It's not like ROH was leisurely selling out 5K arenas even during the Elite days.

We all remember different things depending who you care for. My bigger memories about the women's matches. I honestly don't remember about 80% of the battle royale because it's a bunch of people that are not even in the company, it was an opener in a pre-match show, but it was the wackiest thing that people can latch on to complain about AEW.

No, this wasn't just the opener of a pre-show, it was the first thing they put in front of the camera for the world to see. This company that claims to be all about serious competition started with a battle royale filled with a guy with no legs, indy schticks, dumb comedy with their latest signee, garbage wrestlers doing garbage wrestling, old farts and two guys who look like stars and had a chance (and keep in mind, MJF was a far distant second to win this thing when Page came out).

I have my money on LAX.

We'll see I guess.

when you go 'nnnggghhh' means that you didn't like it, not that it's bad. I just saw someone that is no innocent she wouldn't even know when people are tricking her. Regardless, she had a match an hour later which was the actual impression that I kept, a cutesy chick that can kick your ass.

No, it means that "she's actually a sweet girl unlike Bayley" came off as a complete phony.

That's it!? one concussion and she is a 'living hazard'!? I can't imagine what you think of guys like Dragon Lee or Sheamus

One concussion and many other instances of being reckless. I'm not writing her off or anything, but it did sour me on her yes.

You gonna have to share with me what promotions you're watching if girls like Riho and Sakazaki are 'not very good' in the ring.

MLW (and AEW), and that's it for the moment. I did watch my fair amount of women's wrestling a few years ago and yes, they aren't special. Small joshi are a dime a dozen and they are two of them, that's it.

but hopefully little girls do or will one day, and given the reactions, i think it's just you. Not everyone needs to have a 'gimmick'

The little girls who are nowhere to be seen in the arena?

Again, three shows in, I really don't know what you're expecting or looking for. They're obviously building Riho and Baker so far. They've been having great matches that only you seem to dislike. What else is there to get out of them?

How can you like the Knockouts and think this is any good so far?

Thelone wrote: ↑Aug 13th, '19, 04:07 Well, they could have done less random multi-person matches where no one gets the spotlight for starter. Also, air a few vignettes explaining who X or Y is and and his/her motivations and what sets him/her apart. It doesn't need to be an hour long documentary for each person on the roster, just a quick 1-2 minute deal for the guys you're planning to push.

I like the multi-person matches. I get to watch more people at a time to familiarize with them at a decent, I don't, think we need to know every thing about every one on day 1. If there is something i learned from Lucha Underground, is that introduce wrestlers with multi man matches, put the spotlight with single matches. It's not over saturation to get a taste of everything first, and then get to know them one by one.

As for the vignettes, every road to show has done something along those lines. The latest one was about Rose. As people become relevant to the promotion, they'll get their spotlight.

Thelone wrote: ↑Aug 13th, '19, 04:07 It sure didn't/isn't working listening to the minuscule pop Page got at FftF while Jericho was cheered when he beat him up. This comes off more like Page is the chosen one who got the easy way towards the title match while Jericho is basically the kinda-heel version of Chris Daniels in ROH when he finally got the belt.

Jericho is, and will forever be a superstar, you just don't pop when you see him. It's the Vince McMahon problem, people are star-struck regardless of the opinion before the show.

Thelone wrote: ↑Aug 13th, '19, 04:07 The same smarks that won't travel from all over the world for every TV taping. Your last sentence makes sense, but you're gonna need more than just the smark fans to be viable in the long run. It's not like ROH was leisurely selling out 5K arenas even during the Elite days.

ROH has a lot more issues beyond what they sell. It's ok that you won't get all those fans to fly in, but you do want to make sure that the one that do, make a lot of noise and make the show seem like fun and a bigger deal so that the people watching on tv will want to go to the show next time they're close by. These pops are what made PWG and NXT be super popular for a while, fans were making the shows seem like the place to be and the wrestler just had to deliver. This is what every promotion should be smart about wrestling, as much as they may like an act, if the fans hate it, you either take it off, or use them for your benefit. These guys are already aware that the Librarians are not liked, so they make fun of the gimmick in BTE and i'm confident they'll use the gimmick to get some heat or end up taking it away.

Thelone wrote: ↑Aug 13th, '19, 04:07 No, this wasn't just the opener of a pre-show, it was the first thing they put in front of the camera for the world to see. This company that claims to be all about serious competition started with a battle royale filled with a guy with no legs, indy schticks, dumb comedy with their latest signee, garbage wrestlers doing garbage wrestling, old farts and two guys who look like stars and had a chance (and keep in mind, MJF was a far distant second to win this thing when Page came out).

Do they really claim that they're all about 'serious competition'? I think that's a claim that even Kaiji Big Battel may do. So what if it was the first match, how can people damn a whole promotion just because they started a pre-show with Non-Cornette Approved wrestling? They finished the show with 3 AMAZING matches, a hell of an angle, and people still hang on a dude with no legs because "they're killing the business" "how dare they do comedy!" "fuck Cody Rhodes!". Seriously, that's just trying to hate on the product for whatever reason.

Thelone wrote: ↑Aug 13th, '19, 04:07One concussion and many other instances of being reckless. I'm not writing her off or anything, but it did sour me on her yes.

ok, maybe i haven't seen that much of her, i've never seen her be reckless

Thelone wrote: ↑Aug 13th, '19, 04:07MLW (and AEW), and that's it for the moment. I did watch my fair amount of women's wrestling a few years ago and yes, they aren't special. Small joshi are a dime a dozen and they are two of them, that's it.

MLW doesn't have women's wrestling, you're just saying the AEW roster is bad by default. Yeah, small joshi may be dime a dozen, but when you pack a bunch together, you can make a hell of a roster like Stardom or Ice Ribbon or Sendai Girls have.

Thelone wrote: ↑Aug 13th, '19, 04:07The little girls who are nowhere to be seen in the arena?

And the ones that hopefully will start watching on TV. Baker is a good role model, for kids, teenagers, and adults. Hell, she should be a role model to every wrestler that won't have something to fall back to if they need to retire.

Thelone wrote: ↑Aug 13th, '19, 04:07How can you like the Knockouts and think this is any good so far?

because so far, it's been three shows with good matches, far better than Su Yung and Rosemary have. None of them may be able to touch Tessa, Taya, Jordynne, or Gail, but they're not abysmal as you're trying to make them seem. No one is expecting for AEW to be a 5-star machine, that'd be just delusional.

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Aug 12th, '19, 23:21

cero2k wrote: ↑Aug 12th, '19, 22:06
nothing different from the Royal Rumble really

Just because WWE does something dumb doesn't mean others should get a pass for doing it as well.

I don't really think it's dumb, even for WWE, i think rumbles should have a comedy and nostalgia aspect to them. It can't all be tension and drama. If Hurricane wins a Rumble, i'll complain, but comedy acts coming in/spot/out are breaks that you give the fans throughout the match.