Thelone wrote: ↑Aug 14th, '21, 15:03
Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Aug 9th, '21, 11:14When Biiss and Carmella got called up, NXT hadn't quite developed into that yet, and the two of them, Braun, and Evans all got called up well before they should have been in terms of working ability. Even if not a top spot, Bliss could easily have settled in to the #2 heel position in NXT.
I guess it was less obvious with the women, but Bliss and Carmella were never going to get the ball in NXT, which they got on the main roster. You can actually count on one hand (with a finger or two to spare) how many women got the ball/belt in NXT during the last 5-6 years.
I think Bliss might have had a shot if not for Asuka. Asuka is what derails a lot of people because she was the top dog for so long... but I don't have a problem with that because the story suited it. The problem was her getting called up without having the chance to put someone over first and make the next top star.
Thelone wrote: ↑Aug 14th, '21, 15:03
Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Aug 9th, '21, 11:14Even if Braun never appeared on TV, NXT still deserves the credit for training him.
Again, I didn't say you shouldn't credit the PC for training Strowman even if he's never been on NXT TV, but he's a guy who would have died on the show (most likely squashing jobbers endlessly) just like Corbin and Elias did when they were down there.
I don't remember Corbin or Elias squashing jobbers much, and if Elias did, it's because he wasn't much above jobber level himself when he was called up. But Elias is absolutely an example of a guy who NXT made, as they helped him find the gimmick that made him more than bland Logan Shulo.
Also, who is to say that he would have wound up squashing jobbers all the time like the Ascension instead of being involved in real storylines like Lars Sullivan was?
Thelone wrote: ↑Aug 14th, '21, 15:03
Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Aug 9th, '21, 11:14I figured the conversation had to be about people who started in NXT or were obscure indy names because I thought the discussion was about NXT's ability as a developmental territory. To give them credit for making an Owens or Zayn or Balor or Shinsuke or Roode or Drew or Asuka would be ridiculous. If you sign an already finished product but Vince won't use him/her on the main roster, it's silly to criticize NXT for not "developing" him/her more when they really don't need to develop.
Developmental in a big company like WWE isn't just about picking random bodybuilders/fitness models/former athletes and training them to be wrestlers. You mention Zayn (the others I agree with you), but he had to learn how to be Sami Zayn after a decade of being a mute "luchador". This is something that should have been done with countless guys/girls who got called up and ended up being duds because they can't cut a promo and/or have no character to speak of.
I'm not really sure who you think fits into this category other than maybe Crews, Jax, and Dana Brooke, and I think it's pretty much universally recognized that the latter two were called up before they were ready. Furthermore, I think there were a lot of people who were
less bland in NXT and Vince made them blander when they were called up (Ember Moon, Ascension, Summer Rae, American Alpha, Heavy Machinery. We're even seeing it now with Karrion Kross. They took away his entrance and his symbolism and have reduced him to a catchphrase).
Thelone wrote: ↑Aug 14th, '21, 15:03
Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Aug 9th, '21, 11:14Yes, O'Reilly sucks at promos. But we knew that going in and we knew he'd probably never get any better. The real solution should be to use him in a tag team or with a manager. But they did teach Rollins how to cut a promo. Roddy, too (although Roddy had gotten competent towards the end of his indy run.
That's the thing : why even hire a guy like O'Reilly if you're not going to work with him on his weaknesses that will limit him tremendously in WWE? This is on them and quite frankly, also on O'Reilly who's complacent and doesn't seem to understand that this is what failed him in ROH and what will lead to his demise in WWE as well.
Why are you assuming that they haven't been working with him and for whatever reason it's just not taking? You hire a guy like that because you don't know if your promo classes will work for him until you try. Yes, O'Reilly's downfall as a singles competitor in NXT has been the same thing that hurt him in ROH, but fr Seth Rollins, his strength on the main roster has been the thing he was the worst at in ROH. Pac was bland as f*ck, too, but look where he is now. Not all of that should be credited to NXT, but that's certainly where he really started to show improvement in that category.
Thelone wrote: ↑Aug 14th, '21, 15:03
Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Aug 9th, '21, 11:14Guys are only main eventers if they are pushed that way. The problem is Vince. Instead of looking at NXT in a vacuum, you have to compare it to other WWE developmental territories. I'm going to ignore the women here because NXT has been the only developmental territory that existed while women were given a chance to be main eventers.
OVW gave us Brock, Orton, Cena, Ziggler (and Vince managed to kill him off quickly), and they get partial credit for Miz. I'm not counting Lashley here because the consensus was that he was called up WAY too soon, and it showed because he sucked for long time. His first actually good run was in TNA in 2014.
DSW gave us... partial credit for Miz, partial credit for Ryback, and who else? Kofi doesn't count, because his main event run was a total accident. If Randy Orton doesn't kick Ali in the head too hard, Kofi-Mania never happens. Swagger, I guess, but Vince killed him off almost immediately after giving him the belt.
FCW gave us... Big E. (although he's not actually a main eventer yet), partial credit for Bray, partial credit for Ryback, Rusev (almost got there, but Vince killed him off), the Usos (although they were trained before, too), Roman (although the real top-star presentation was something he developed well afterwards. Le'akee was not the Head of the Table)
NXT gave us... Braun, the potential of Lars Sullivan, partial credit for Bray (I'm not going to count Corbin as being that successful), and it should be noted that 1) they had to split time pushing the women and tag teams, too, and 2) NXT was being asked to draw ratings and houses that no other developmental territory was ever asked to draw, so you can't just go with the grapefruit-circuit guys on top.
The question shouldn't be how many main eventers (or even upper midcarders) did these places create, but rather how many people did they set up for that level, either by training them or by helping them find that gimmick that allowed them to connect with the crowd. The developmental territory shouldn't be blamed if it gives Vince a Curtis Axel or a Damien Sandow and Vince drops the ball.
I think people expect a lot more from NXT/PC because it's been around for almost a decade in its current form and how much money they've invested in it. OVW is a wrestling school they had a partnership with for a few years, DSW and FCW were much smaller than even early NXT, and current NXT had to draw ratings and sell out arenas when Hunter felt the need to try to show up the old man with his version of PWG while sinking more and more cash into his vanity project with diminishing results.
NXT actually hasn't had to sell out arenas very much, as their schedule has always been quite limited, and they really haven't had to do it since the downturn started.
Your point about size and tenure is taken (although, again, who did OVW produce towards the end? And NXT is at about the point in terms of tenure as developmental where OVW was when WWE dropped them), but when you add the women back in, NXT's record looks a lot better. I'm not holding not developing bigger-name female stars against the others because that wasn't their directive at the time, but there is an opportunity cost. If you're only trying to develop male wrestlers, you have twice as much time to spend on them. Every minute spent on Bianca Belair is a minute that wasn't spent on Kona Reeves (of course, it's equally valid to say that every moment spent on someone who came in as a finished product like Adam Cole is also a minute not spent on Kona Reeves, but I'll get to that in a moment).
And it's not just the women NXT was doing this with. They were also spending time on tag teams whereas the other developmental promotions didn't unless those teams were from wrestling families (Usos, Hart Dynasty. I can barely even remember any other teams that got called up as teams, other than the Major Brothers, and that's going back to 2007). And you can argue that spending time on tag teams and also on "short guys" like Cole, Gargano, and Ciampa (and, by the way, how about Ciampa as a guy whose mic skills improved in NXT?) is something they should have known not to because Vince would never push them to the top... but you could have made the exact same argument about the women when NXT started pushing them, and NXT (and specifically Hunter, Del Rey, William Regal, Ryan Ward, and Matt Bloom)
did successfully change the culture on the main roster as far as women's wrestling goes.
As for the PWG comparison, that's nowhere near fair. A monkey could book PWG. It's just taking a list of top indy talent that are available that day and pulling names out of a hat. NXT has actual storylines.
Thelone wrote: ↑Aug 14th, '21, 15:03
Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Aug 9th, '21, 11:14You give those guys to Gabe in EVOLVE or during his ROH run and they're main eventers. You drop them into a New Japan that cares about its tag division and they're main eventers. You put them in wXw or PROGRESS and they're main eventers. You give those guys to Delirious and tell him that he has to give them actual time their matches, and they're main eventers. Just like they were main eventers in NXT. The problem is Vince. American Alpha, FTR, and AoP all had massive potential.
The problem isn't their training. The problem is Vince wouldn't give them the chance.
And I don't blame Hunter for trying to push them, because he was hoping he could show Vince that these people
can work as main eventers, just like he did with the women.
Exactly, the main problem is that they're bland and uninteresting. Their first name in NXT was the Mechanics for a good reason (and probably too on the nose).
They started off bland, sure, but I haven't found them bland for abut five years at this point.
But even if you do think they're bland, the promoter's job is to come up with ways to hide that blandness. Look at what NXT did with the AoP. They gave them a menacing manager who fit their image, and shot their promos in lighting designed to make them look more menacing. If someone isn't the most dynamic promo, you have them cut most of the promos in video package form, where you can do as many takes as you like and hide any awkward facial expressions (and distract people from any general sense of blandness) with clips of what they're talking about (or just of them doing cool things). Accentuate the positives and hide the negatives. That's what promoting is all about.