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Tony Khan is the new owner of Ring of Honor.

After announcing the acquisition on tonight’s episode of AEW Dynamite, a press release was sent out confirming that Khan had purchased the company from Sinclair Broadcast Group. Included in the deal are ROH’s video library, brand assets, intellectual property, production equipment, and more.

The press release states that the purchase will be completed through "an entity that is wholly-owned by Tony Khan". It also said that further details regarding the extent of the acquisition will be announced in the coming weeks.





ROH released all of their wrestlers under contract back in October and went into hiatus following their last pay-per-view, Final Battle, in December. Recently they have been promoting their first card for 2022, Supercard of Honor XV, which will take place on April 1 in Garland, Texas.

Okay then.

It's over.

If the rumors are true, Khan paid almost this year's TV rights fee for a shell of a promotion and loads of grainy, SD, cheaply produced content (more emphasis on that last one) that most reputable third party streaming services won't give a shit about (and I don't see the Honor Club service being mentioned).

"Youngest-skewing wrestling audience on television", I guess it's technically true, but the median age is still almost 50, hardly something to brag about.

Also I love how the one thing he did take from WWE is producing hours upon hours of meaningless content and being proud of it somehow.

Anyway, Tony better start making money soon because he's making it easier for EVIL Vince to buy both for peanuts in the not-so-distant future.

Thelone wrote: ↑Mar 3rd, '22, 09:02 If the rumors are true, Khan paid almost this year's TV rights fee for a shell of a promotion and loads of grainy, SD, cheaply produced content (more emphasis on that last one) that most reputable third party streaming services won't give a shit about (and I don't see the Honor Club service being mentioned).

"Youngest-skewing wrestling audience on television", I guess it's technically true, but the median age is still almost 50, hardly something to brag about.

Also I love how the one thing he did take from WWE is producing hours upon hours of meaningless content and being proud of it somehow.

Anyway, Tony better start making money soon because he's making it easier for EVIL Vince to buy both for peanuts in the not-so-distant future.

I think, in the long run, they can make it back via streaming due to potential interest in the pre-Sinclair footage.

Kids these days, not having to hunt down DVDs on ebay, sometimes shelling out over $100 for something rare.

Spoiled rotten.

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Mar 3rd, '22, 09:39I think, in the long run, they can make it back via streaming due to potential interest in the pre-Sinclair footage.

If Tiny legitimately paid 50M for ROH, he's never getting it back no matter what. A mainstream streaming service like HBO Max is never going to put something as low-rent and cheap looking as early ROH on their site/app and having the ROH tape library doesn't make AEW more desirable to them despite "thousands of hours of content". Like you said, they might recoup a small amount with a Dub Network or whatever you wanna call it, but how much interest is there really? I remember when the Network came out : I watched a bunch of iconic moments/matches, then moved on to current content (NXT in my case) and never went back to classic stuff.

Kids these days, not having to hunt down DVDs on ebay, sometimes shelling out over $100 for something rare.

Spoiled rotten.

If only you had millions to spare, you could have done what Tony did and just buy it all!

cero2k wrote: ↑Mar 3rd, '22, 09:13

I remember those on ROHWorld when I told people that the promotion was on the wrong track despite doing great at the time. I should go back there and asked them how they feel today now that the killer savior of pro wrestling Tony Khan bought ROH.

Thelone wrote: ↑Mar 3rd, '22, 12:10

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Mar 3rd, '22, 09:39I think, in the long run, they can make it back via streaming due to potential interest in the pre-Sinclair footage.

If Tiny legitimately paid 50M for ROH, he's never getting it back no matter what. A mainstream streaming service like HBO Max is never going to put something as low-rent and cheap looking as early ROH on their site/app and having the ROH tape library doesn't make AEW more desirable to them despite "thousands of hours of content". Like you said, they might recoup a small amount with a Dub Network or whatever you wanna call it, but how much interest is there really? I remember when the Network came out : I watched a bunch of iconic moments/matches, then moved on to current content (NXT in my case) and never went back to classic stuff.

Maybe I'm being overly optimistic, but I just can't conceive of people watching ROH in that way because so much of the "iconic moments" aren't really the big things themselves but rather the angles to set up the big match/feud or kick-off some sort of storyline.

When I think of "moments" in ROH, I think of Punk's goodbye, or the Embassy trying to scrape Punk's tattoos off with a cheese-grater, or Punk's heel turn after winning the world title or Generation Next forming, or Cabana dumping Lacey and trying to get Jimmy Jacobs to see the light and Jimmy attacking him, or Homicide coming at Cage of Death, or Whitmer getting tortured by the CZW guys at Arena Warfare or the AOTF debut, or Steen turning on Generico, or Steen's return at BITW 2011, but so much of that stuff is the beginning or midway point of a story. The only "moments" that I can think of that were the ending points of a story are the title wins of Homicide and Steenerico (and maybeAries beating Joe), and so much of that won't mean much without having seen all of the struggles leading up to it.

There is no "moment" that is Dragon vs. Roddy at Vendetta or Dragon vs. Nigel at Unified or Joe vs. Punk or Kenta vs. Low Ki. The thing that makes the main event of the first show memorable is the match itself. Daniels not following the Code of Honor is just a hook to get you to watch the next show and root against Daniels.

Thelone wrote: ↑Mar 3rd, '22, 12:10

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Mar 3rd, '22, 09:39Kids these days, not having to hunt down DVDs on ebay, sometimes shelling out over $100 for something rare.

Spoiled rotten.

If only you had millions to spare, you could have done what Tony did and just buy it all!

I already did that, just not in a form where I can re-sell it like Tony.

Thelone wrote: ↑Mar 3rd, '22, 12:10
I remember those on ROHWorld when I told people that the promotion was on the wrong track despite doing great at the time.

What was it DXvsNWO1997 wound up calling us (you, me, Burnside, and who was the other one?) "The Coalition of the Reasonable?"

We were quite ahead of the curve on that. (And on Cody, too.)

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Mar 3rd, '22, 19:27Maybe I'm being overly optimistic, but I just can't conceive of people watching ROH in that way because so much of the "iconic moments" aren't really the big things themselves but rather the angles to set up the big match/feud or kick-off some sort of storyline.

When I think of "moments" in ROH, I think of Punk's goodbye, or the Embassy trying to scrape Punk's tattoos off with a cheese-grater, or Punk's heel turn after winning the world title or Generation Next forming, or Cabana dumping Lacey and trying to get Jimmy Jacobs to see the light and Jimmy attacking him, or Homicide coming at Cage of Death, or Whitmer getting tortured by the CZW guys at Arena Warfare or the AOTF debut, or Steen turning on Generico, or Steen's return at BITW 2011, but so much of that stuff is the beginning or midway point of a story. The only "moments" that I can think of that were the ending points of a story are the title wins of Homicide and Steenerico (and maybeAries beating Joe), and so much of that won't mean much without having seen all of the struggles leading up to it.

There is no "moment" that is Dragon vs. Roddy at Vendetta or Dragon vs. Nigel at Unified or Joe vs. Punk or Kenta vs. Low Ki. The thing that makes the main event of the first show memorable is the match itself. Daniels not following the Code of Honor is just a hook to get you to watch the next show and root against Daniels.

There is also more besides Hogan bodyslamming André at WM3 (the turn and contract signing), Hogan vs. Savage at WM5 (the Mega Powers storyline), Austin 3:16 promo at KotR 96 and Austin vs. Bret at WM13 (the birth of Stone Cold), Hogan turning on WCW at BatB 96 and forming the nWo with Hall and Nash (those two "invading" Nitro and the nWo storyline), the Montreal Screwjob (D-X vs. Hart Foundation feud), or the RAW/Nitro simulcast (the downfall of WCW), but very few people today will watch the previous months of TV build-up that lead to those moments/matches even if it's also memorable. For example, no one is going to watch Goldberg go through countless undercarders for months, they'll go straight to the Raven/Flock match for the US title, Hogan at the Georgia Dome for the World title, DDP at Halloween Havoc, then Nash at Starrcade.

I just feel like a lot of early ROH stuff falls in the "if you weren't there at the time, you won't "get it" today" category, like ECW in the 90's, PROGRESS in the '10s and probably GCW in the future (I'll refrain from saying AEW for now). That doesn't mean there is no demand for it, but probably not as much as people think.

As for Khan, keep in mind that I don't believe he actually paid 50M to own ROH, but this purchase feels like something he just wanted to do for a long time rather than a smart business investment. That'd be like if you set yourself up as a young adult to buy your parents' house or a particular model of car one day and when you finally have the funds for it, now the house is in the shitty part of town instead of the nice neighborhood you grew up in or that car eats more gas than a modern day power plant in a world of hybrid and electric cars. Do you still go ahead or be reasonable and look for something else? Khan said in 2005 or whenever that he'll buy ROH one day because he enjoyed it and finally did it 17 years later, except he bought the bankrupt, hollow, Sinclair-owned, irrelevant version of ROH, not the golden era one he liked as a young adult.

I mean congratulations to Tony! He now owns loads of poorly-shot 2000's indy shows and Sinclair-era footage very few people cared about when it was new, a bunch of worthless IPs and title belts, second hand production equipment that is most likely worse than what he's currently using for AEW and... that's about it really. All of that for way more than Vince paid for both WCW and ECW in 2001 even when you factor inflation, just so he can show his awkward self on TV to announce the purchase, make one of the many mandatory weekly WWE digs, turn ROH into his "developmental" he didn't need two years ago because he's signing anybody with a pulse and just can't put everybody on TV despite having factions the size of Roman legions at this point.

Ugh...

I already did that, just not in a form where I can re-sell it like Tony.

To be fair, you probably own as much as he does for a tiny fraction of the price.

What was it DXvsNWO1997 wound up calling us (you, me, Burnside, and who was the other one?) "The Coalition of the Reasonable?"

We were quite ahead of the curve on that. (And on Cody, too.)

I mean, maybe? I don't remember that to be honest although if I had to guess, the fourth one was either Marketh or Mojo Risin.

Thelone wrote: ↑Mar 4th, '22, 13:36

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Mar 3rd, '22, 19:27Maybe I'm being overly optimistic, but I just can't conceive of people watching ROH in that way because so much of the "iconic moments" aren't really the big things themselves but rather the angles to set up the big match/feud or kick-off some sort of storyline.

When I think of "moments" in ROH, I think of Punk's goodbye, or the Embassy trying to scrape Punk's tattoos off with a cheese-grater, or Punk's heel turn after winning the world title or Generation Next forming, or Cabana dumping Lacey and trying to get Jimmy Jacobs to see the light and Jimmy attacking him, or Homicide coming at Cage of Death, or Whitmer getting tortured by the CZW guys at Arena Warfare or the AOTF debut, or Steen turning on Generico, or Steen's return at BITW 2011, but so much of that stuff is the beginning or midway point of a story. The only "moments" that I can think of that were the ending points of a story are the title wins of Homicide and Steenerico (and maybeAries beating Joe), and so much of that won't mean much without having seen all of the struggles leading up to it.

There is no "moment" that is Dragon vs. Roddy at Vendetta or Dragon vs. Nigel at Unified or Joe vs. Punk or Kenta vs. Low Ki. The thing that makes the main event of the first show memorable is the match itself. Daniels not following the Code of Honor is just a hook to get you to watch the next show and root against Daniels.

There is also more besides Hogan bodyslamming André at WM3 (the turn and contract signing), Hogan vs. Savage at WM5 (the Mega Powers storyline), Austin 3:16 promo at KotR 96 and Austin vs. Bret at WM13 (the birth of Stone Cold), Hogan turning on WCW at BatB 96 and forming the nWo with Hall and Nash (those two "invading" Nitro and the nWo storyline), the Montreal Screwjob (D-X vs. Hart Foundation feud), or the RAW/Nitro simulcast (the downfall of WCW), but very few people today will watch the previous months of TV build-up that lead to those moments/matches even if it's also memorable. For example, no one is going to watch Goldberg go through countless undercarders for months, they'll go straight to the Raven/Flock match for the US title, Hogan at the Georgia Dome for the World title, DDP at Halloween Havoc, then Nash at Starrcade.

I don't disagree with anything you said here, but I think that a lot of the other stuff we think of as famous "moments" (like Austin and the beer truck)- especially post 1997 or so, and doubly so in WWF- are a lot more... "self-contained," maybe? For Austin and the beer truck, all you really need to know is the basic context of rebellious babyface employee Austin vs. greedy evil boss McMahon. That could have happened at pretty much any point between April 1998 and November 1999 when Austin goes for surgery. I don't even know when it happened off the top of my head. I'd have to figure it out based on who is in the ring with Vince at the time. Similarly, for Shawn sticking the Canadian flag up his nose, all you need to know is the USA vs. Canada stuff, and Shawn and Brett not liking each other. The timing within that is not important. You can just jump around and watch the famous "moments" within those feuds, just the way you illustrated with Goldberg. For the ROH stuff, it's either something that isn't nearly as effective if you're not watching the stuff that led up to it (the Jacobs/Lacey/Cabana stuff) or not something where there is any sort of singular moment (like Punk vs. Joe).

Thelone wrote: ↑Mar 4th, '22, 13:36 I just feel like a lot of early ROH stuff falls in the "if you weren't there at the time, you won't "get it" today" category, like ECW in the 90's, PROGRESS in the '10s and probably GCW in the future (I'll refrain from saying AEW for now). That doesn't mean there is no demand for it, but probably not as much as people think.

I guess this depends on where you're drawing the line for what counts as "early," but I think that the booking makes that less true than it has been for the promotions you mentioned. I think that the context of both the "no f*ck finishes" concept and the relative quality of indy matches at the time needs to be understood (some random awesome undercard match between, say Danielson and Shelley in 2004 wouldn't stand out as much today), but something like Punk vs. Rave or Jimmy Loves Lacey or even the little stories that people barely remember anymore (like AJ Styles recruiting Matt Sydal to be his partner at a time when Sydal's Generation Next teammates were the tag champs) will hook people once they are exposed to it a lot more than, say ECW or GCW.

Thelone wrote: ↑Mar 4th, '22, 13:36 As for Khan, keep in mind that I don't believe he actually paid 50M to own ROH, but this purchase feels like something he just wanted to do for a long time rather than a smart business investment. That'd be like if you set yourself up as a young adult to buy your parents' house or a particular model of car one day and when you finally have the funds for it, now the house is in the shitty part of town instead of the nice neighborhood you grew up in or that car eats more gas than a modern day power plant in a world of hybrid and electric cars. Do you still go ahead or be reasonable and look for something else? Khan said in 2005 or whenever that he'll buy ROH one day because he enjoyed it and finally did it 17 years later, except he bought the bankrupt, hollow, Sinclair-owned, irrelevant version of ROH, not the golden era one he liked as a young adult.

You're probably right, but I guess my outlook on this is that if he has that much disposable income and wants to spend it on something he has really wanted for a long time, I don't blame him for offering a high enough price to make sure that he's the one who got it. I don't see it as being that much different from me spending north of $200 on Irresistible Forces and International Challenge to complete my pre-Sinclair ROH collection.

Thelone wrote: ↑Mar 4th, '22, 13:36

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Mar 3rd, '22, 19:27What was it DXvsNWO1997 wound up calling us (you, me, Burnside, and who was the other one?) "The Coalition of the Reasonable?"

We were quite ahead of the curve on that. (And on Cody, too.)

I mean, maybe? I don't remember that to be honest although if I had to guess, the fourth one was either Marketh or Mojo Risin.

Definitely Mojo.

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Mar 4th, '22, 14:14I don't disagree with anything you said here, but I think that a lot of the other stuff we think of as famous "moments" (like Austin and the beer truck)- especially post 1997 or so, and doubly so in WWF- are a lot more... "self-contained," maybe? For Austin and the beer truck, all you really need to know is the basic context of rebellious babyface employee Austin vs. greedy evil boss McMahon. That could have happened at pretty much any point between April 1998 and November 1999 when Austin goes for surgery. I don't even know when it happened off the top of my head. I'd have to figure it out based on who is in the ring with Vince at the time. Similarly, for Shawn sticking the Canadian flag up his nose, all you need to know is the USA vs. Canada stuff, and Shawn and Brett not liking each other. The timing within that is not important. You can just jump around and watch the famous "moments" within those feuds, just the way you illustrated with Goldberg. For the ROH stuff, it's either something that isn't nearly as effective if you're not watching the stuff that led up to it (the Jacobs/Lacey/Cabana stuff) or not something where there is any sort of singular moment (like Punk vs. Joe).

I agree that a lot of moments from the Attitude and Ruthless Aggression eras are self-contained and you don't need the full picture to enjoy them today (Austin's zamboni and beer truck, Angle's cum milk truck, the supermarket brawl with Austin and Booker T, those backstage skits with Trish and the tables, and many more), but you still have big matches and moments where you kinda need some backstory. I know this isn't really "classic" yet, but take Bryan's title win at WM30 : you could watch both matches in a vacuum because they're really fucking great with a hot crowd and a satisfying conclusion, but you won't understand what made them special if you don't watch or know anything from Summerslam and onwards.

I guess this depends on where you're drawing the line for what counts as "early," but I think that the booking makes that less true than it has been for the promotions you mentioned. I think that the context of both the "no f*ck finishes" concept and the relative quality of indy matches at the time needs to be understood (some random awesome undercard match between, say Danielson and Shelley in 2004 wouldn't stand out as much today), but something like Punk vs. Rave or Jimmy Loves Lacey or even the little stories that people barely remember anymore (like AJ Styles recruiting Matt Sydal to be his partner at a time when Sydal's Generation Next teammates were the tag champs) will hook people once they are exposed to it a lot more than, say ECW or GCW.

Isn't the general consensus that the golden years end with Jerry Lynn winning the belt from Nigel and the beginning of the HDnet era?

Part of the issue with ROH (and ECW) is that it will be remembered mostly because it did something "before it was cool" and kickstart the careers of many top guys in the industry during the '10's, not so much because of anything in particular that happened there (I'm paraphrasing here). ROH did hot angles and matches sure, but I feel like only ROH fans care about them today still. I read someone on Reddit say that "people liked the idea of ROH, but didn't really watch it", and that's a good summary. I'm sure people were intrigued by a promotion with mostly fast-paced matches when you had stiffs like Luther Reigns on WWE TV and the Jarrett show on Impact, but they weren't going to pay $15 for an indy show DVD shot with a potato cam in a bingo hall or rec center somewhere in the northeast. By the time ROH got on TV (and that's being generous, even during the SBG era), TNA was available in many more homes with the X-Division and by the time ROH got okay production values, the indy style became the norm almost everywhere so it wasn't special anymore and still looked small time compared to WWE/AEW/even Impact. This is the same with ECW being raunchy/lewd/having high octane cruiserweight matches, WWF/WCW picking elements of it during the AE with much better production values and the same or better talents doing it, and ECW looking like a shitty budget version of that when it finally made it on national TV.

Deep down, ROH is no different than any random territory back in the day and unless you had the chance to experience it first hand, you won't have any sentimental attachment and thus no reason to check out anything from it. No joke, the only thing I've watched of ECW on the Network was Shane Douglas dumping the NWA title to become the first ECW champion and the beginning of the extreme, because it has some significance in the overall wrestling history, and even that's pretty obscure.

You're probably right, but I guess my outlook on this is that if he has that much disposable income and wants to spend it on something he has really wanted for a long time, I don't blame him for offering a high enough price to make sure that he's the one who got it. I don't see it as being that much different from me spending north of $200 on Irresistible Forces and International Challenge to complete my pre-Sinclair ROH collection.

We've all been there, spending too much money for things we really wanted, but Khan is allegedly a businessman trying to make his wrestling promotion viable in the long run, not turn his EWR/TEW saves from years ago into reality. Sure, he may have bought ROH with his own money and not AEW's, but it's still a rotten investment that he'll never recuperate and won't benefit his main promotion in the slightest.

Thelone wrote: ↑Mar 6th, '22, 07:49

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Mar 4th, '22, 14:14I don't disagree with anything you said here, but I think that a lot of the other stuff we think of as famous "moments" (like Austin and the beer truck)- especially post 1997 or so, and doubly so in WWF- are a lot more... "self-contained," maybe? For Austin and the beer truck, all you really need to know is the basic context of rebellious babyface employee Austin vs. greedy evil boss McMahon. That could have happened at pretty much any point between April 1998 and November 1999 when Austin goes for surgery. I don't even know when it happened off the top of my head. I'd have to figure it out based on who is in the ring with Vince at the time. Similarly, for Shawn sticking the Canadian flag up his nose, all you need to know is the USA vs. Canada stuff, and Shawn and Brett not liking each other. The timing within that is not important. You can just jump around and watch the famous "moments" within those feuds, just the way you illustrated with Goldberg. For the ROH stuff, it's either something that isn't nearly as effective if you're not watching the stuff that led up to it (the Jacobs/Lacey/Cabana stuff) or not something where there is any sort of singular moment (like Punk vs. Joe).

I agree that a lot of moments from the Attitude and Ruthless Aggression eras are self-contained and you don't need the full picture to enjoy them today (Austin's zamboni and beer truck, Angle's cum milk truck, the supermarket brawl with Austin and Booker T, those backstage skits with Trish and the tables, and many more), but you still have big matches and moments where you kinda need some backstory. I know this isn't really "classic" yet, but take Bryan's title win at WM30 : you could watch both matches in a vacuum because they're really fucking great with a hot crowd and a satisfying conclusion, but you won't understand what made them special if you don't watch or know anything from Summerslam and onwards.

Your point is solid. I guess I'm just more optimistic than you that someone will hear about, say Dragon vs. Roddy from Vendetta (long, classic match without much storyline going into it other than that they faced off the week before and Roddy had things won but Dragon got a good shot in and knocked him out) rather than just searching for "moments."

Thelone wrote: ↑Mar 6th, '22, 07:49

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Mar 4th, '22, 14:14I guess this depends on where you're drawing the line for what counts as "early," but I think that the booking makes that less true than it has been for the promotions you mentioned. I think that the context of both the "no f*ck finishes" concept and the relative quality of indy matches at the time needs to be understood (some random awesome undercard match between, say Danielson and Shelley in 2004 wouldn't stand out as much today), but something like Punk vs. Rave or Jimmy Loves Lacey or even the little stories that people barely remember anymore (like AJ Styles recruiting Matt Sydal to be his partner at a time when Sydal's Generation Next teammates were the tag champs) will hook people once they are exposed to it a lot more than, say ECW or GCW.

Isn't the general consensus that the golden years end with Jerry Lynn winning the belt from Nigel and the beginning of the HDnet era?

Some people would put it at Gabe being fired, some people would extend it until BITW 2011 (people forget how awesome 2010 and the first half of 2011 were, and I've been an outspoken defender of the second half of 2009 as well). Also, "golden era" is different than "early" ROH. A lot of people will start the "Golden Era" at At Our Best or Generation Next or sometime in the late spring of 2005, and some people will cut it off at some point in 2007 or 2008.
"Early ROH" (at least to me) is 2002-early 2004 (2nd Anniversary Show or At Our Best). The Prophecy is a big deal, Low Ki is around on a relatively full-time basis (when he's not injured) the Prophecy is a major force in storylines, Special K and the Carnage Crew are more prominent parts of the show than Nigel, Jimmy Jacobs, the Gen. Next guys, etc (some of the Gen. Next guys haven't even shown up yet), the Embassy is pretty much a jobber group, Xavier is a thing, etc.

Thelone wrote: ↑Mar 6th, '22, 07:49 Part of the issue with ROH (and ECW) is that it will be remembered mostly because it did something "before it was cool" and kickstart the careers of many top guys in the industry during the '10's, not so much because of anything in particular that happened there (I'm paraphrasing here). ROH did hot angles and matches sure, but I feel like only ROH fans care about them today still. I read someone on Reddit say that "people liked the idea of ROH, but didn't really watch it", and that's a good summary. I'm sure people were intrigued by a promotion with mostly fast-paced matches when you had stiffs like Luther Reigns on WWE TV and the Jarrett show on Impact, but they weren't going to pay $15 for an indy show DVD shot with a potato cam in a bingo hall or rec center somewhere in the northeast. By the time ROH got on TV (and that's being generous, even during the SBG era), TNA was available in many more homes with the X-Division and by the time ROH got okay production values, the indy style became the norm almost everywhere so it wasn't special anymore and still looked small time compared to WWE/AEW/even Impact. This is the same with ECW being raunchy/lewd/having high octane cruiserweight matches, WWF/WCW picking elements of it during the AE with much better production values and the same or better talents doing it, and ECW looking like a shitty budget version of that when it finally made it on national TV.

I just finished listening to this month's Between The Sheets Patreon show on the genesis of ROH, and Meltzer actually mentioned the 'fans like the idea of ROH but wouldn't really watch it' thing in relation to the 2001 King of the Indies (and even noted that those shows, with bigger names but fewer of APW's regular crew, didn't draw as well as APW usually did- although with the caveat that this was two shows in the same building on the same weekend).

That idea, while it's not a mindset that I understand, is why I have contended that however poorly ROH, EVOLVE, or similar (I assume Pro Wrestling Iron used this philosophy, but don't actually know) have drawn on the indies, that doesn't mean that it won't work if you try it on a "national promotion with free TV" level (ROH doesn't quite count here because the lack of uniformity of time-slot prevented it from getting any buzz... and by the time it really had that, it really wasn't using that booking philosophy anymore).

Thelone wrote: ↑Mar 6th, '22, 07:49 Deep down, ROH is no different than any random territory back in the day and unless you had the chance to experience it first hand, you won't have any sentimental attachment and thus no reason to check out anything from it. No joke, the only thing I've watched of ECW on the Network was Shane Douglas dumping the NWA title to become the first ECW champion and the beginning of the extreme, because it has some significance in the overall wrestling history, and even that's pretty obscure.

Once again, you're probably right, but as someone who got into ROH in 2008-2009, I don't understand why people wouldn't treat it like any other "old" TV show in a genre they enjoy, and go watch it simply for the quality of the art. There are plennty of sci-fi fans who have only discovered shows like Deep Space 9 and Farscape over the past five years because of their availability on streaming services.

Also, you're point that Shane throwing the belt down is actually relatively obscure is fascinating to me. The more I think about it, the more I agree. Maybe "obscure" isn't the right word, but it really actually isn't all that important for anything other than being a springboard for Shane Douglas (ECW already had their style and their rebel attitude), and even then, Shane had been doing the "Dick Flair" stuff already, so even he already had his anti-establishment thing going on.

Thelone wrote: ↑Mar 6th, '22, 07:49

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Mar 4th, '22, 14:14You're probably right, but I guess my outlook on this is that if he has that much disposable income and wants to spend it on something he has really wanted for a long time, I don't blame him for offering a high enough price to make sure that he's the one who got it. I don't see it as being that much different from me spending north of $200 on Irresistible Forces and International Challenge to complete my pre-Sinclair ROH collection.

We've all been there, spending too much money for things we really wanted, but Khan is allegedly a businessman trying to make his wrestling promotion viable in the long run, not turn his EWR/TEW saves from years ago into reality. Sure, he may have bought ROH with his own money and not AEW's, but it's still a rotten investment that he'll never recuperate and won't benefit his main promotion in the slightest.

If he bought it with his own money, then I don't think it's fair to criticize (or even if he put in an appropriate amount of AEW money and then used his own for the overpay). If he way overpaid with AEW money, then that's fair to criticize.

I have also heard someone speculate that ROH's TV clearances might have been involved in the deal.

Because this guy is doing so well with AEW as it is?

KILLdozer wrote: ↑Mar 6th, '22, 17:30 Because this guy is doing so well with AEW as it is?

While the consensus in this forum is that Khan is Satan, incompetent, and the end of pro wrestling, AEW is actually doing quite well. Second promotion in the US to break the million dollar gate.

cero2k wrote: ↑Mar 7th, '22, 12:20

KILLdozer wrote: ↑Mar 6th, '22, 17:30 Because this guy is doing so well with AEW as it is?

While the consensus in this forum is that Khan is Satan, incompetent, and the end of pro wrestling, AEW is actually doing quite well. Second promotion in the US to break the million dollar gate.

Has anyone checked this adjusted for inflation? I'm not saying it's not important, but I imagine that, say WCW probably would have done it at some point if inflation was the same as it was today, and possibly even someone like WCCW for a Star Wars or some other Texas Stadium show.

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Mar 6th, '22, 09:30Your point is solid. I guess I'm just more optimistic than you that someone will hear about, say Dragon vs. Roddy from Vendetta (long, classic match without much storyline going into it other than that they faced off the week before and Roddy had things won but Dragon got a good shot in and knocked him out) rather than just searching for "moments."

Look at ROH's Youtube channel : most of their top viewed men's matches (I'm not counting women's because... well, we know why they're being watched) are actually fairly recent (and weirdly enough, a bunch of them from Lio Rush of all people, maybe because they do restrospectives whenever he's "retiring", ok no). The first one I'd consider "classic" is that dog collar match they ripped off for Punk-MJF, then it's already sub-500k for matches that have been uploaded years ago (there are exceptions of course).

Some people would put it at Gabe being fired, some people would extend it until BITW 2011 (people forget how awesome 2010 and the first half of 2011 were, and I've been an outspoken defender of the second half of 2009 as well). Also, "golden era" is different than "early" ROH. A lot of people will start the "Golden Era" at At Our Best or Generation Next or sometime in the late spring of 2005, and some people will cut it off at some point in 2007 or 2008.
"Early ROH" (at least to me) is 2002-early 2004 (2nd Anniversary Show or At Our Best). The Prophecy is a big deal, Low Ki is around on a relatively full-time basis (when he's not injured) the Prophecy is a major force in storylines, Special K and the Carnage Crew are more prominent parts of the show than Nigel, Jimmy Jacobs, the Gen. Next guys, etc (some of the Gen. Next guys haven't even shown up yet), the Embassy is pretty much a jobber group, Xavier is a thing, etc.

Without going too deep, you can divide ROH's history based on who were the champions at a certain time. It was always "guys who were champions in an era leaving/being phased out during the next while the mid/uppercarders from the previous one are now on top".

• 2002-2005 (Early years) - ends with Punk's reign
• 2005-2009 (Golden era) - ends with Nigel's reign
• 2009-2013 (HDnet/(beginning of the) SBG era) - ends with Steen's reign
• 2013-2017 (New Japan era) - ends with Cole's final reign
• 2017-2019 (Elite era) - ends with Lethal's second reign
• 2019-2022 ("I told you so" era, no I don't know) - ends with the money mark cosplaying as "Vince buying WCW" on a random Dynamite

I just finished listening to this month's Between The Sheets Patreon show on the genesis of ROH, and Meltzer actually mentioned the 'fans like the idea of ROH but wouldn't really watch it' thing in relation to the 2001 King of the Indies (and even noted that those shows, with bigger names but fewer of APW's regular crew, didn't draw as well as APW usually did- although with the caveat that this was two shows in the same building on the same weekend).

That idea, while it's not a mindset that I understand, is why I have contended that however poorly ROH, EVOLVE, or similar (I assume Pro Wrestling Iron used this philosophy, but don't actually know) have drawn on the indies, that doesn't mean that it won't work if you try it on a "national promotion with free TV" level (ROH doesn't quite count here because the lack of uniformity of time-slot prevented it from getting any buzz... and by the time it really had that, it really wasn't using that booking philosophy anymore).

Presentation is just as important as the content, especially when you're selling a television/streamable product in the days of oversized 4K TVs that will highlight any random visual flaw. That is why I find hilarious that some dubbalos are like "AEW bought so much content with ROH, this HBO Max deal will happen any day now" when a) I think streaming platforms are past the point of quantity and are looking for quality now and b) the ROH video quality ranged from "complete ass and amateurish" to "ok, but dark and drab". It's also something that I think isn't really talked about yet, but will Tiny actually put some work into remastering that content. I mean, I guess it's nice that EVIL Vince didn't get his grubby hands on that goldmine so he could let it rot in a damp warehouse somewhere because he hates pro wrestling of course, but does Khan have the equipment or know-how to work on that content and do more than just "remove the copyrighted music and put black bars on both sides"? Considering QT fucking Marshall is in charge of production, I find it hard to believe he does and I know nothing is too expensive for Tiny, but I'm just saying.

Once again, you're probably right, but as someone who got into ROH in 2008-2009, I don't understand why people wouldn't treat it like any other "old" TV show in a genre they enjoy, and go watch it simply for the quality of the art. There are plennty of sci-fi fans who have only discovered shows like Deep Space 9 and Farscape over the past five years because of their availability on streaming services.

Well, what I just wrote about remastering really.

Also, you're point that Shane throwing the belt down is actually relatively obscure is fascinating to me. The more I think about it, the more I agree. Maybe "obscure" isn't the right word, but it really actually isn't all that important for anything other than being a springboard for Shane Douglas (ECW already had their style and their rebel attitude), and even then, Shane had been doing the "Dick Flair" stuff already, so even he already had his anti-establishment thing going on.

It's noteworthy because it kicked the NWA into irrelevancy for almost a decade and didn't they rebrand from Eastern to Extreme a few weeks after that promo? Sure, it's not the Monday Night Wars or Black Saturday, but that promo is a little piece of history nonetheless.

If he bought it with his own money, then I don't think it's fair to criticize (or even if he put in an appropriate amount of AEW money and then used his own for the overpay). If he way overpaid with AEW money, then that's fair to criticize.

I have also heard someone speculate that ROH's TV clearances might have been involved in the deal.

I'll still make fun of him if he really paid 30-40M (it's from Sean Fraud Sapp who has a direct line to Khan) for an almost dead promotion no matter where that money comes from quite frankly. ROH is just another (absurdly) expensive toy to add to his collection alongside Regal and whatever Strickland is called today.

It's not particularly clear what he paid for outside of what that statement in the OP mentions. If Honor Club is part of the deal, I feel like it's a much bigger get than fucking second hand cameras for example. The TV slots... would be next to worthless considering how awful they are. They might as well try to put "ROH" on TruTV or FITE instead.

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Mar 7th, '22, 15:55
Has anyone checked this adjusted for inflation? I'm not saying it's not important, but I imagine that, say WCW probably would have done it at some point if inflation was the same as it was today, and possibly even someone like WCCW for a Star Wars or some other Texas Stadium show.

idk, but a promotion from 20 years ago wouldn't really diminish the accomplishment by AEW, it's been so long that it shouldn't even count anymore, industry is completely different.

NJPWxROH show I think also did over 1M, but that was two promotions doing a special show, at MSG which means more expensive tickets.

cero2k wrote: ↑Mar 7th, '22, 12:20

KILLdozer wrote: ↑Mar 6th, '22, 17:30 Because this guy is doing so well with AEW as it is?

While the consensus in this forum is that Khan is Satan, incompetent, and the end of pro wrestling, AEW is actually doing quite well. Second promotion in the US to break the million dollar gate.

I just get vibes and the idea that they're constantly signing Ex WWE guys and therefore just over-inflating the roster.

Thelone wrote: ↑Mar 7th, '22, 17:47

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Mar 6th, '22, 09:30Your point is solid. I guess I'm just more optimistic than you that someone will hear about, say Dragon vs. Roddy from Vendetta (long, classic match without much storyline going into it other than that they faced off the week before and Roddy had things won but Dragon got a good shot in and knocked him out) rather than just searching for "moments."

Look at ROH's Youtube channel : most of their top viewed men's matches (I'm not counting women's because... well, we know why they're being watched) are actually fairly recent (and weirdly enough, a bunch of them from Lio Rush of all people, maybe because they do restrospectives whenever he's "retiring", ok no). The first one I'd consider "classic" is that dog collar match they ripped off for Punk-MJF, then it's already sub-500k for matches that have been uploaded years ago (there are exceptions of course).

But they also never pushed that stuff. One assumes that, as part of a streaming service, TK would.

Thelone wrote: ↑Mar 7th, '22, 17:47

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Mar 6th, '22, 09:30 I just finished listening to this month's Between The Sheets Patreon show on the genesis of ROH, and Meltzer actually mentioned the 'fans like the idea of ROH but wouldn't really watch it' thing in relation to the 2001 King of the Indies (and even noted that those shows, with bigger names but fewer of APW's regular crew, didn't draw as well as APW usually did- although with the caveat that this was two shows in the same building on the same weekend).

That idea, while it's not a mindset that I understand, is why I have contended that however poorly ROH, EVOLVE, or similar (I assume Pro Wrestling Iron used this philosophy, but don't actually know) have drawn on the indies, that doesn't mean that it won't work if you try it on a "national promotion with free TV" level (ROH doesn't quite count here because the lack of uniformity of time-slot prevented it from getting any buzz... and by the time it really had that, it really wasn't using that booking philosophy anymore).

Presentation is just as important as the content, especially when you're selling a television/streamable product in the days of oversized 4K TVs that will highlight any random visual flaw. That is why I find hilarious that some dubbalos are like "AEW bought so much content with ROH, this HBO Max deal will happen any day now" when a) I think streaming platforms are past the point of quantity and are looking for quality now and b) the ROH video quality ranged from "complete ass and amateurish" to "ok, but dark and drab". It's also something that I think isn't really talked about yet, but will Tiny actually put some work into remastering that content. I mean, I guess it's nice that EVIL Vince didn't get his grubby hands on that goldmine so he could let it rot in a damp warehouse somewhere because he hates pro wrestling of course, but does Khan have the equipment or know-how to work on that content and do more than just "remove the copyrighted music and put black bars on both sides"? Considering QT fucking Marshall is in charge of production, I find it hard to believe he does and I know nothing is too expensive for Tiny, but I'm just saying.

I would think that that sort of thing isn't as important to someone who is looking for the art of it (which someone looking for that stuff on an AEW streaming service theoretically is). I also think that Tony actually will put the money into remastering the stuff.

Thelone wrote: ↑Mar 7th, '22, 17:47

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Mar 6th, '22, 09:30Also, you're point that Shane throwing the belt down is actually relatively obscure is fascinating to me. The more I think about it, the more I agree. Maybe "obscure" isn't the right word, but it really actually isn't all that important for anything other than being a springboard for Shane Douglas (ECW already had their style and their rebel attitude), and even then, Shane had been doing the "Dick Flair" stuff already, so even he already had his anti-establishment thing going on.

It's noteworthy because it kicked the NWA into irrelevancy for almost a decade and didn't they rebrand from Eastern to Extreme a few weeks after that promo? Sure, it's not the Monday Night Wars or Black Saturday, but that promo is a little piece of history nonetheless.

I think they already were irrelevant, though. 1994 ECW was their biggest promotion, and 1994 ECW was a regional promotion barely running outside of Eastern PA and Maryland. Who else was involved?
Corraluzzo? He tried doing something with the name when it was fresh off TV with that 93 show in Minneapolis with Sabu vs. Lightning Kid (Terry Funk vs. Road Warrior Hawk was on top to draw), and that went nowhere.
Howard Brody? What did he ever really do?
Jim Crockett? His WWN never went anywhere after his first taping in February, so whatever connections he might have had obviously weren't going to mean much.
Smoky Mountain couldn't have joined because Cornette was working for Vince already, and ditto for Memphis because Lawler was, too, (and I think Jarrett sill might have been as well).

It was an important moment for ECW's imagine, but it didn't really change much for the NWA or the "indy" scene such as it was.

cero2k wrote: ↑Mar 8th, '22, 11:41

Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Mar 7th, '22, 15:55
Has anyone checked this adjusted for inflation? I'm not saying it's not important, but I imagine that, say WCW probably would have done it at some point if inflation was the same as it was today, and possibly even someone like WCCW for a Star Wars or some other Texas Stadium show.

idk, but a promotion from 20 years ago wouldn't really diminish the accomplishment by AEW, it's been so long that it shouldn't even count anymore, industry is completely different.

NJPWxROH show I think also did over 1M, but that was two promotions doing a special show, at MSG which means more expensive tickets.

I think it actually does "diminish" the accomplishment (at least in the literal sense). If others have managed it when adjusted for inflation, then doing that means that AEW is "merely" a strong, established brand that will have to take some major screw-ups by management in order to fail (rather than just "bad luck" or being "too far ahead of its time"), but that it's not some particularly unique accomplishment.

KILLdozer wrote: ↑Mar 8th, '22, 15:55
I just get vibes and the idea that they're constantly signing Ex WWE guys and therefore just over-inflating the roster.

Who's not an Ex-WWE guy now a days? And it's not like they're hiring the Kona Revees and the Tyler Rusts, most people that have been signed have been good to great, the only groan in the last year of signings was really Danhausen, and that's not a WWE guy. If you look at the whole list of people signed during 2021, it's about half and half between people who worked for WWE if even for month, and those that have never stepped a foot there, and it's still a small number compared to the 100+ people that were fired from WWE during 2021, and if you wanna take it higher, names like Danielson, Cole, KOR, Punk, Black, Andrade all left WWE, they're not 'WWE rejects' like the Vincels like to call them.

As for the over-inflation, they do have a large roster, but it's not a detriment, Revolution gave you a bunch of matches and they all had a story between them, the promotion is still infant in a way, they're still adapting into the optimal roster, their first run of contracts is just now reaching the expiration date and they didn't re-sign exclusivity with a lot of the people who were not up to the level like Marko Stunt, Peter Avalon, Swole, Joey Janela and all the Europeans that had trouble coming over to the US. I could never understand if someone has an issue that they haven't seen Penelope Ford or Kazarian for a month; come back with complains when they start having 4 segments with Moxley in two hours.