'Last Week Tonight' covers WWE independent contractor status

[cero2k]

Source: f4wonline.com

As their biggest media week of the year began, WWE was again a subject on HBO's "Last Week Tonight" with John Oliver.

WWE and Vince McMahon were the focus of the main segment on Sunday night's episode. The 23-minute segment covered how wrestlers have been treated by WWE, them being classified as independent contractors instead of employees, and the benefits they don't receive because of that.

Old clips of Bret Hart, Jesse Ventura, CM Punk, Vince, and Roddy Piper were shown on the episode.

The segment ended with Oliver saying fans have a strong, independent voice in WWE. Oliver said Vince occasionally listens to them, bringing up "#GiveDivasAChance" and WrestleMania being headlined by a women's match for the first time ever this year. The episode showed how fans have contributed to fundraising campaigns for healthcare and funeral expenses for wrestlers.

Oliver said there's potentially an opportunity for fans to chant and make signs at WrestleMania about wanting WWE to pay for wrestlers' long-term healthcare or for them to be classified as employees.

WWE's relationship with Saudi Arabia and the company going on with Crown Jewel as scheduled were featured on two "Last Week Tonight" episodes in October 2018 as part of the show's coverage of the murder of Jamal Khashoggi.

This week's segment is available to watch below:

[cero2k]

Good go-home Wrestlemania publicity

[cero2k]

:::UPDATE:::

WWE INVITES HBO'S JOHN OLIVER TO WRESTLEMANIA

On the heels of a feature segment on Sunday's 'Last Week Tonight' on HBO that painted WWE in a negative light, WWE released a statement Monday inviting host John Oliver to this Sunday's WrestleMania:

The following was released by WWE to our website in addition to others:

"John Oliver is clearly a clever and humorous entertainer. However, the subject matter covered in his WWE segment is no laughing matter. Prior to airing, WWE responded to his producers refuting every point in his one-sided presentation. John Oliver simply ignored the facts.

The health and wellness of our performers is the single most important aspect of our business, and we have a comprehensive, longstanding Talent Wellness program. We invite John Oliver to attend WrestleMania this Sunday to learn more about our company."

The 23-minute segment tackled, among other things, WWE's classification of talent as independent contractors, the amount of wrestler deaths vs. other professions, and Vince McMahon's role in the industry we know today.

Pro Wrestling Sheet reached out to HBO for a statement and was told, “The show likes to let the segments speak for themselves and will not be available to comment on this.”

[cero2k]

Prior to airing, WWE responded to his producers refuting every point in his one-sided presentation.

you read it here folks, WWE is refuting that CM Punk shat his britches. Cue in another 3 minute video of awkward close ups of CM Punk's butt.

[NWK2000]

Actually a pretty tame program all things considered. Oliver clearly respects wrestling and the positives Vince did for it.
I personally didn't like the six week thing, as I'd never heard of that, and I also wondered why they didn't mention that the rehab program was created to prevent dead wrestlers.

Also, hypocritical of them to use the 2003 Piper interview when in 2006 the WWE's medical test picked up on Piper's cancer and Piper went on to feel indebted to the WWE as a result.

[cero2k]

Actually a pretty tame program all things considered. Oliver clearly respects wrestling and the positives Vince did for it.
I personally didn't like the six week thing, as I'd never heard of that, and I also wondered why they didn't mention that the rehab program was created to prevent dead wrestlers.

Also, hypocritical of them to use the 2003 Piper interview when in 2006 the WWE's medical test picked up on Piper's cancer and Piper went on to feel indebted to the WWE as a result.

it's as tame as you can get before opening flood gates that would require a lot more than 20 minutes to get into. My only complain here is that they tried to tie everything up with dead wrestlers, while there wasn't been a lot of active wrestlers dying anymore since the implementation of the wellness policy. They could have used Umaga who died months later after being released, but that's about it. If they had taken the concussion/CTE/early retirement angle + the lack of a post-career pension, it would have been a stronger argument, because now a lot of people will say "well, back then things were differently, we now retire you before you die, but after your brain is fucked up". Even the current story of making Ciampa work KNOWING he needed surgery could had been a super strong argument that their wellness policies and medical care is bs.

as for the Piper stuff. Like i mentioned, it probably wasn't the best example, but it was prime to showcase the lack of a pension or post-career medical insurance, and we're talking about Piper that was there almost until the end, not counting the hundreds of guys that didn't even have that to fall back on.

[Big Red Machine]

Actually a pretty tame program all things considered. Oliver clearly respects wrestling and the positives Vince did for it.
I personally didn't like the six week thing, as I'd never heard of that, and I also wondered why they didn't mention that the rehab program was created to prevent dead wrestlers.

Also, hypocritical of them to use the 2003 Piper interview when in 2006 the WWE's medical test picked up on Piper's cancer and Piper went on to feel indebted to the WWE as a result.

Also, it's a 2003 Piper interview. Those are well known for being... um... influenced by substances. Also, Piper has never been the most truthful guy.

[Big Red Machine]

I don't think other industries give you insurance post-career, do they?

[cero2k]

I don't think other industries give you insurance post-career, do they?

i think you'd qualify to something based on social security as you retire, right?
In the case of wrestling is kinda what Oliver said with the NFL with a Legacy fund. We're talking about covering for medical needs that come from the injuries your body went through while active. it's the whole argument, WWE gets rich out of Daniel Bryan and his unfortunate concussions, Daniel Bryan eventually gets released, WWE stays rich, but now no one takes care for Bryan's concussion aftermath. I have to imagine that Bryan wouldn't even have a 401K, at least not matched by WWE.

[Big Red Machine]

I don't think other industries give you insurance post-career, do they?

i think you'd qualify to something based on social security as you retire, right?

Right, which is what confuses me.

In the case of wrestling is kinda what Oliver said with the NFL with a Legacy fund. We're talking about covering for medical needs that come from the injuries your body went through while active. it's the whole argument, WWE gets rich out of Daniel Bryan and his unfortunate concussions, Daniel Bryan eventually gets released, WWE stays rich, but now no one takes care for Bryan's concussion aftermath. I have to imagine that Bryan wouldn't even have a 401K, at least not matched by WWE.

Yes, WWE gets rich off of Bryan's concussions, but my understanding is that a lot of the wrestlers who we hear about struggling were 80's guys who blew all of their money living the "wrestler" lifestyle and had drug problems. Maybe that's not a fair way to look at it, but we really don't hear that sort of thing about, like, Val Venis or someone like that.

Also, WWE in particular employs a hell of a lot of old guys as "brand ambassadors" or whatever that they really don't need to, which, for a chunk of these guys, should be more than enough to pay for some of this stuff.

This is one of those issues that I think would solve itself if the wrestlers were allowed to unionize.

[cero2k]

Yes, WWE gets rich off of Bryan's concussions, but my understanding is that a lot of the wrestlers who we hear about struggling were 80's guys who blew all of their money living the "wrestler" lifestyle and had drug problems. Maybe that's not a fair way to look at it, but we really don't hear that sort of thing about, like, Val Venis or someone like that.

Also, WWE in particular employs a hell of a lot of old guys as "brand ambassadors" or whatever that they really don't need to, which, for a chunk of these guys, should be more than enough to pay for some of this stuff.

This is one of those issues that I think would solve itself if the wrestlers were allowed to unionize.

The thing about those ambassadors and the ones the 80s guys is that for every Piper and Flair that WWE would bring back, you also have the Kamalas and Perry Saturns who just have it bad and pay off their medical bills doing conventions. They'll only parade you if you're looking good, if they can show the nice side of wrestling, but they're never going to use you if you're in a wheelchair.

Or people like Richie Steamboat who didn't even get enough time to build up a small savings account to follow through with what I'll guess will be a life of chronic pain

[Bob-O]

you read it here folks, WWE is refuting that CM Punk shat his britches.

Or they're refuting that there's something odd about that. "Yeah, of course he shat his britches! People here shit their britches all the time! Britches, Crowns, gym bags, the hood of my car... it's just a way of life here in the WWE... that's why I never shake hands... Fuji used to get me with that one all the time..."


I don't think anyone is expecting Vince to fix what's already been done, and I don't think it's fair to expect him to be held accountable for guys like Flair or even Foley, who most likely did most of their damage outside of his watch. I don't think he should be responsible for funding robot legs for Kamala.

It's a slippery slope of what WWE should logically be held accountable for and today's society of "everyone's a victim". I think a lot of things being put on Vince's shoulders aren't his fault. I feel bad for guys like Jake Roberts and Hacksaw and Perry Saturn, but they didn't save their money and made stupid decisions along the way. I don't think that's all Vince's fault, and I don't think he should be expected to swoop in and fix it. It'd be amazing if he did, but why should he be expected to fix stupid? Why aren't people going after Ted Turner or Eric Bischoff for their part in it? Why does Vince come under fire, but Heyman gets a pass despite knowing 90% of his lockerroom was intoxicated in the ring? Yes, WWE has the money to fix a lot of this, but beyond "that's not nice!!!" - why should they? Witch Hunts are fun, and so very trendy, but that's where the logic is lost.

Even the current story of making Ciampa work KNOWING he needed surgery could had been a super strong argument that their wellness policies and medical care is bs

It's not like he didn't have a voice in that, though. He also knew he needed surgery and thought he could put it off until after Wrestlemania/TakeOver. He was the one that made that decision, WWE is the one that said "yeah... you THOUGHT..."

That said...

They have rules and practices in place now that should protect folks from dying early down the road, and that's awesome, but Oliver is spot-on in that Independent Contractor status is outdated, and I think Vince does owe the people he has under contract something more than a paycheck. I think he owes Richie Steamboat, who got hurt under his contract, compensation for his injury. In Daniel Bryan's case, I think he owes him in the sense that while he didn't have a say in what DB did prior to WWE - which is where he did most of his damage - Vince is the one that said "I can't let you do this any more." At which point a severance package SHOULD be offered, or he can feel free to go someplace else and kill himself, but Vince shouldn't be held accountable at that point. He tried to do what was best.

It's just blowing my mind that with the WWE Sponsored Rehab, the concussion testing, and the wellness policy... all these things WWE does as an excuse as to why they don't provide health insurance, why not just provide some health insurance!? I think it's almost a game to Vince now. He can absolutely afford it, and it's such a no-brainer with all these things they've put in place save face in spite of that fact, they can't honestly claim to have the best interests of the performers in mind until they admit these guys are full time employees. Insurance, 401k, and a plan for time off should be expected from a company of this size.

Not feasible for 300 performers? Then DON'T HAVE 300 PERFORMERS! You don't need that many.

[cero2k]

I don't think anyone is expecting Vince to fix what's already been done, and I don't think it's fair to expect him to be held accountable for guys like Flair or even Foley, who most likely did most of their damage outside of his watch. I don't think he should be responsible for funding robot legs for Kamala.

It's a slippery slope of what WWE should logically be held accountable for and today's society of "everyone's a victim". I think a lot of things being put on Vince's shoulders aren't his fault. I feel bad for guys like Jake Roberts and Hacksaw and Perry Saturn, but they didn't save their money and made stupid decisions along the way. I don't think that's all Vince's fault, and I don't think he should be expected to swoop in and fix it. It'd be amazing if he did, but why should he be expected to fix stupid? Why aren't people going after Ted Turner or Eric Bischoff for their part in it? Why does Vince come under fire, but Heyman gets a pass despite knowing 90% of his lockerroom was intoxicated in the ring? Yes, WWE has the money to fix a lot of this, but beyond "that's not nice!!!" - why should they? Witch Hunts are fun, and so very trendy, but that's where the logic is lost.

I don't think there is much that can be done for those wrestlers from the past. We've saw the concussion lawsuit get thrown off for stupid reasons. John Oliver's arguments are not even about the hurt and punishment and the unsafe working environment, I think he's a wrestling fan and understands the risks that come with the business. What's he's pushing for is a better post-career plan and better treatment now.

As to why not hunt for Bischoff, Turner, or Heyman? simple, because they're not in business anymore and are not billionaires. it serves no purpose going after people of the past, rather fix things for the current and future wrestlers.

I think a lot of people are getting stuck over Oliver using Bret and Roddy as examples because they think he's making an argument about the 80's, while the fact is that the important part is in their comments, which still, hold true to today. WWE STILL gets rich out of wrestlers that come and go for them, and those wrestlers still don't have a post-career lifeplan, savings run out no matter who you are. ALL the WWE office people and executives have awesome benefits thanks to Randy Orton getting concussed by Lesnar the hard way.

It's not like he didn't have a voice in that, though. He also knew he needed surgery and thought he could put it off until after Wrestlemania/TakeOver. He was the one that made that decision, WWE is the one that said "yeah... you THOUGHT..."

he's a young wrestler trying to make it in the WWE, we've seen hundreds of cases of wrestlers going out there hurt, returning early, etc because they can't risk giving up their spot. Ciampa had both his biggest Takeover and first WM in mind, he was definitely going to push it. We've also heard tons of stories like Rey rey or Punk who wanted to take time off to get surgery and WWE wouldn't let them.

That said...

They have rules and practices in place now that should protect folks from dying early down the road, and that's awesome, but Oliver is spot-on in that Independent Contractor status is outdated, and I think Vince does owe the people he has under contract something more than a paycheck. I think he owes Richie Steamboat, who got hurt under his contract, compensation for his injury. In Daniel Bryan's case, I think he owes him in the sense that while he didn't have a say in what DB did prior to WWE - which is where he did most of his damage - Vince is the one that said "I can't let you do this any more." At which point a severance package SHOULD be offered, or he can feel free to go someplace else and kill himself, but Vince shouldn't be held accountable at that point. He tried to do what was best.

It's just blowing my mind that with the WWE Sponsored Rehab, the concussion testing, and the wellness policy... all these things WWE does as an excuse as to why they don't provide health insurance, why not just provide some health insurance!? I think it's almost a game to Vince now. He can absolutely afford it, and it's such a no-brainer with all these things they've put in place save face in spite of that fact, they can't honestly claim to have the best interests of the performers in mind until they admit these guys are full time employees. Insurance, 401k, and a plan for time off should be expected from a company of this size.

Not feasible for 300 performers? Then DON'T HAVE 300 PERFORMERS! You don't need that many.

From what i've heard/read, it's a combination that no insurance company likes to insure wrestlers, at least not for cheap. In addition, WWE can manipulate their own testing/rehab/policies. Even with how corrupt USADA is, WWE still wouldn't go with them for wellness testing because they know it be worse for a lot of their top stars. Most people get caught for the stupidest things and it's all about who you are on your punishment. Sydal kept getting busted for pot while Randy just pays the fine type of deal.

There's really no excuse, especially now, why WWE can't set up the basic stuff like 401K matching if anything. WWE doesn't even pay for travel expenses to most of the wrestlers. Even actors retire with all those basic benefits thanks to the unions and SAG.

Paul London said it best

[Big Red Machine]

I think my opinion is pretty much in line with Bob-O's.

I think, though, that if we're going to criticize Vince for some of this stuff then he also need to be credited with forcing Bryan into retirement (and creating an on-screen role for him). I believe Paige was also a case of someone who didn't want to retire but was forced into it. I think Vince should be giving his wrestlers health insurance, but I also don't think it's fair to say that Vince doesn't have the best interests of his wrestlers' long-term health in mind. We're not even getting the pointless Mania Ladder Match this year.

I disagree on the whole "but you Ciampa knows he really can't take time off or else he'll get punished" narrative because of the change in the wrestling landscape over the past two or three years. If WWE wants to punish Ciampa, he can just sign elsewhere when his contract is up and he'll be a huge deal for ROH or AEW or TNA or MLW or whoever (I don't see him fitting in with a Japanese style very well).


Not having a "post-career life-plan" is not something Vince should be blamed for. Many wrestlers throughout history figured this out well before Vince came along, and have continued to do so up until the current day. When Jerry Jarrett saw that Memphis was going to inevitably become unprofitable, he started up a construction business, and didn't sell the territory until his construction business was up and running. You've just got to do your best to plan ahead. Other physical businesses like the NHL or NBA or UFC don't have "post-career plans" for their employees, so why should Vince be expected to do so. Anyone getting into the wrestling business knows what they're getting into in terms of physicality.

[Bob-O]

I think a lot of people are getting stuck over Oliver using Bret and Roddy as examples because they think he's making an argument about the 80's, while the fact is that the important part is in their comments, which still, hold true to today.

I absolutely got stuck on that, and you're not wrong. Showing haggered recognizable vets is sure to be far more effective than featuring younger guys like London when you want to get people fired up for change, and I'm all for that no matter what it takes.

I just fear that the Witch Hunt starts when say a guy like Ambrose leaves, starts working stupid again, gets hurt, and people start showing up at Titan Towers with pitchforks wondering why Vince isn't taking care of him. I get that Vinny K is a carny piece of shit, but fair is fair.

I remember reading a piece about them making NXT talent take classes, or maybe just offering classes at the PC, on managing your money and having an exit plan. Did that ever take off or am I imagining that...?

he's a young wrestler trying to make it in the WWE, we've seen hundreds of cases of wrestlers going out there hurt, returning early, etc because they can't risk giving up their spot. Ciampa had both his biggest Takeover and first WM in mind, he was definitely going to push it.

That's understandable, but my understanding is that he even questioned being called up to the main roster despite needing surgery, he was told that they wanted him to have that experience and exposure for when he returned. I don't think it was so much "pushing it" as it was having an exit and a return plan... which is a good thing! It just didn't quite work out. It doesn't sound at all like a Punk or a Mysterio situation where they're begging for time off and being flat out denied that. These are two guys that didn't have to worry about "spots", they were mistreated, but it's not something we've heard about going on since Punk's shoot. Not to say that it isn't, but the overwhelming gripe now is guys TRYING to get used. Surely there's a happy medium somewhere... hopefully this piece helps find it.

From what i've heard/read, it's a combination that no insurance company likes to insure wrestlers

Can you imagine what WWE could have accomplished by now if they'd only put all the time/effort/money that they sunk into defending why they don't need to provide insurance to their performers into negotiating insurance plans for their "Sports Entertainers". A term used to get them out of so many things, surely that term wouldn't be under the scrutiny it gets if it were used for good instead of evil... "...these guys are trained professionals, and what they're doing is in a safe and controlled environment. Far safer than the unpredictability of NFL Football or any other sport. This is Sports ENTERTAINMENT, we employ actors... now let's negotiate."

That's what SHOULD be going on.

Sydal kept getting busted for pot while Randy just pays the fine type of deal.

I know what you're saying, but in the sake of fairness, Orton, RVD, and countless others paid the "Pot Tax", which was a fine for whoever was caught with THC in their systems, but not a strike on the Wellness Policy because even WWE understood the benefits back then. Sydal kept getting busted for synthetic marijuana, which is way worse, solely recreational, and against the policy.

There's really no excuse, especially now, why WWE can't set up the basic stuff like 401K matching if anything. WWE doesn't even pay for travel expenses to most of the wrestlers. Even actors retire with all those basic benefits thanks to the unions and SAG.

100% agree. Absolutely no excuse.

The things that they've implemented are wonderful, I don't want anyone to take anything away from that, but I'll also agree with London in that there's a lot of propaganda to it. Everything they do is underlined with, "Look at all these things WE DON'T HAVE TO DO, but are doing anyway because we care!" while avoiding the obvious things they SHOULD HAVE TO BE DOING but refuse to even though they can afford it.

[cero2k]

I think my opinion is pretty much in line with Bob-O's.

I think, though, that if we're going to criticize Vince for some of this stuff then he also need to be credited with forcing Bryan into retirement (and creating an on-screen role for him). I believe Paige was also a case of someone who didn't want to retire but was forced into it. I think Vince should be giving his wrestlers health insurance, but I also don't think it's fair to say that Vince doesn't have the best interests of his wrestlers' long-term health in mind. We're not even getting the pointless Mania Ladder Match this year.

I disagree on the whole "but you Ciampa knows he really can't take time off or else he'll get punished" narrative because of the change in the wrestling landscape over the past two or three years. If WWE wants to punish Ciampa, he can just sign elsewhere when his contract is up and he'll be a huge deal for ROH or AEW or TNA or MLW or whoever (I don't see him fitting in with a Japanese style very well).


Not having a "post-career life-plan" is not something Vince should be blamed for. Many wrestlers throughout history figured this out well before Vince came along, and have continued to do so up until the current day. When Jerry Jarrett saw that Memphis was going to inevitably become unprofitable, he started up a construction business, and didn't sell the territory until his construction business was up and running. You've just got to do your best to plan ahead. Other physical businesses like the NHL or NBA or UFC don't have "post-career plans" for their employees, so why should Vince be expected to do so. Anyone getting into the wrestling business knows what they're getting into in terms of physicality.

The one distinction that I think needs to be made is this is not against Vince, this should be against WWE itself. You are right that it was them that retired Bryan and Paige, but they're also the ones clearing Angle, and Shane, and Ciampa, and while i agree that there is a certain care of the person, i also think there is a certain percent that is not wanting to have another Lawler/Droz/Owen situation on a show.

it's not about punishing Ciampa, it's about him missing his shot while the iron is hot, because there is nothing to say whether he'll be as hot when he comes back. WWE is not gonna punish him for getting surgery, but they're also not going to wait for him, Gargano will move on, NXT will move on. Also, as much as we like to think that people have options now, the truth is WWE is still THE WWE. Can he find work? sure, but there is still only one WWE and one Wrestlemania and as long as everyone holds it up like this main boss in the industry, wrestlers at the level of Ciampa will always do what it takes to get there, he's not Cena, he's just a guy that got over and is barely making noise, he's still nothing in the main roster. Wrestlers dream of main eventing WM, not of being the best in the world, his is why WWE gets away singing incredibly unfair contracts.

NHL and NBA players DO have pensions, NBA's are actually really good ones. UFC doesn't and has been a shit show for years too, people are also trying to start a fighters union there because of the shit treatment. Just because Dana White is a piece of shit, it doesn't excuse WWE, they're both shit, they both SHOULD treat their employees better. In addition, NHL, NBA, UFC, all those guys are allowed to get their own sponsorships and public side gigs, WWE doesn't.

You're also asking that wrestlers have a second job 'just in case', that sucks, wrestling isn't a hobby that you work on the weekends, especially not in WWE. That's where the whole independent contract thing comes up, if they were treated like ones, they'd be able to just do their side gigs and not suffer consequences for not doing RAW and house shows. At the level of WWE, no one should go in with the idea of i'll do this for a bit before i focus 100% on construction. I think it's smart to have a side-gig, but it shouldn't be a necessity in order to live your life after you decide to retire.

[Bob-O]

Not having a "post-career life-plan" is not something Vince should be blamed for. Many wrestlers throughout history figured this out well before Vince came along, and have continued to do so up until the current day. When Jerry Jarrett saw that Memphis was going to inevitably become unprofitable, he started up a construction business, and didn't sell the territory until his construction business was up and running. You've just got to do your best to plan ahead. Other physical businesses like the NHL or NBA or UFC don't have "post-career plans" for their employees, so why should Vince be expected to do so. Anyone getting into the wrestling business knows what they're getting into in terms of physicality.

This.

Oliver talks about CM Punk's shatty britches, but not about how he and a whole slew of others do just fine after wrestling. As with any job, you have to plan for the time when you won't have it any more.

Guys like Rick Steiner and Spike Dudley had a plan. For every 5 guys that have a plan, there's always the one the doesn't, and he's the one we hear about. I think that goes with any line of work.

But again, if these are the stories that need told to get the fans and the media train chugging toward insurance, time off, and 401k options for these guys from a company that can absolutely afford it, I'll tolerate the witch hunt as long as the end serves the means.

[cero2k]

I absolutely got stuck on that, and you're not wrong. Showing haggered recognizable vets is sure to be far more effective than featuring younger guys like London when you want to get people fired up for change, and I'm all for that no matter what it takes.

I just fear that the Witch Hunt starts when say a guy like Ambrose leaves, starts working stupid again, gets hurt, and people start showing up at Titan Towers with pitchforks wondering why Vince isn't taking care of him. I get that Vinny K is a carny piece of shit, but fair is fair.

I remember reading a piece about them making NXT talent take classes, or maybe just offering classes at the PC, on managing your money and having an exit plan. Did that ever take off or am I imagining that...?

I wouldn't say that WWE has to take care of everyone that passed through there, if you quit or are fired due to a reasonable reason, your contract and benefits end there. But if WWE is retiring Paige, and Bryan, and Angle, they surely should get a severance plan. By reasonable i don't mean you injured yourself and now creative has nothing for you.
I do remember those classes too, but I mean, it's just a class, it's not matching your 401k so you actually have money to manage when you're old.

That's understandable, but my understanding is that he even questioned being called up to the main roster despite needing surgery, he was told that they wanted him to have that experience and exposure for when he returned. I don't think it was so much "pushing it" as it was having an exit and a return plan... which is a good thing! It just didn't quite work out. It doesn't sound at all like a Punk or a Mysterio situation where they're begging for time off and being flat out denied that. These are two guys that didn't have to worry about "spots", they were mistreated, but it's not something we've heard about going on since Punk's shoot. Not to say that it isn't, but the overwhelming gripe now is guys TRYING to get used. Surely there's a happy medium somewhere... hopefully this piece helps find it.

I guess we can't really know what it was until Ciampa is mad with WWE and does a shoot interview. It still sounds like pretty bad judgement from WWE and their doctors (ciampa ain't one). If at any point Ciampa questioned not getting the surgery, then it now ALL falls on WWE not doing it, and we know it was bad when it went from 'it can wait til after WM' to 'It needs to happen tomorrow'

I know what you're saying, but in the sake of fairness, Orton, RVD, and countless others paid the "Pot Tax", which was a fine for whoever was caught with THC in their systems, but not a strike on the Wellness Policy because even WWE understood the benefits back then. Sydal kept getting busted for synthetic marijuana, which is way worse, solely recreational, and against the policy.

True, the sydal case was special, and I'm sure guys like Matt Sydal came in with some sort of simplified pot tax too. I was just trying to make the point that when WWE controls their own testing, they decide if Jinder Mahal's roids are ok or not.

The things that they've implemented are wonderful, I don't want anyone to take anything away from that, but I'll also agree with London in that there's a lot of propaganda to it. Everything they do is underlined with, "Look at all these things WE DON'T HAVE TO DO, but are doing anyway because we care!" while avoiding the obvious things they SHOULD HAVE TO BE DOING but refuse to even though they can afford it.

I'm not trying to undermine the good things they have done. For what it's worth, they at least now have a wellness policy and such, and the whole industry has changed for the better, wrestlers aren't rockstars anymore, they're nerd athletes.

Oliver talks about CM Punk's shatty britches, but not about how he and a whole slew of others do just fine after wrestling. As with any job, you have to plan for the time when you won't have it any more.

but also, for every Punk or Steiner, there is a Richie Steamboat or Sawyer Fulton who never got a chance to save money or make a name.

[Big Red Machine]

it's not about punishing Ciampa, it's about him missing his shot while the iron is hot, because there is nothing to say whether he'll be as hot when he comes back. WWE is not gonna punish him for getting surgery, but they're also not going to wait for him, Gargano will move on, NXT will move on. Also, as much as we like to think that people have options now, the truth is WWE is still THE WWE. Can he find work? sure, but there is still only one WWE and one Wrestlemania and as long as everyone holds it up like this main boss in the industry, wrestlers at the level of Ciampa will always do what it takes to get there, he's not Cena, he's just a guy that got over and is barely making noise, he's still nothing in the main roster. Wrestlers dream of main eventing WM, not of being the best in the world, his is why WWE gets away singing incredibly unfair contracts.

I'm not certain that holds as much water with today's crew, many of whom grew up in the days of tape-trading and came up in the modern indy system. I'd be shocked if a good number of them wouldn't be just as happy to main event the Tokyo Dome or Arena Mexico or even Korakuen Hall or Differ Ariake. We've already seen The Arena become that sort of destination for some people. I think today's wrestlers- who grew up with ECW and/or ROH and the more sort of "free-spirited" or individualistic enterprises of PWG, CHIKARA, and even IWA-MS and CZW in their own way- are more into artistic freedom than the classes of years past who came up through the territory system or even the in the 90s where pretty much everyone was still operating under the old school "it's a business, make as much money as possible" philosophy. That's the whole reason AEW exists, as Cody adn the Bucks probably could have made just as much money (or almost as much, but with lesser risk of a bust) in ROH/NJPW or WWE. When was the last time you heard about someone whining because he/she had to drop a title or do a job. Hell... Michael Elgin got in trouble with ROH management for being too willing to do jobs! And now with AEW as an option and ROH growing and TNA spending money again and MLW in existence and New Japan looking to expand into the US, and wrestling growing so much in the UK, I'm not so sure today's wrestlers are so enslaved to the idea of WrestleMania and of WWE being the be-all, end all.


I'm also not sure I'd call WWE contracts "unfair." While they are restrictive, the wrestlers know what they're signing up for and they're paid extremely well. That's the whole reason why guys like Hawkins and Ryder and Sin Cara and Aiden English stay in WWE as jobbers rather than trying their luck on the indies where they have a chance to be top names.

You're also asking that wrestlers have a second job 'just in case', that sucks, wrestling isn't a hobby that you work on the weekends, especially not in WWE. That's where the whole independent contract thing comes up, if they were treated like ones, they'd be able to just do their side gigs and not suffer consequences for not doing RAW and house shows. At the level of WWE, no one should go in with the idea of i'll do this for a bit before i focus 100% on construction. I think it's smart to have a side-gig, but it shouldn't be a necessity in order to live your life after you decide to retire.

It could be something as simple as owning real estate and paying someone else to manage it for you if you want (which is what a lot of wrestlers used to do back in the 70's/80's.


I agree that the independent contractor thing needs to either become honest (even if it's something where WWE are the only people they can wrestle for without permission but they're allowed to pursue their own endorsements), but it's hard for me to have sympathy for people making that much money who don't save it up (especially when WWE pays for their surgeries while they're in the company).

[cero2k]

Meltzer wrote a pretty good piece on this for the Newsletter, i suggest you guys check it out