NJPW Dominion in Osaka-Jo Hall
July 12, 2020
Osaka-Jo Hall, Osaka, Japan
Ryusuke Taguchi, Satoshi Kojima & Yuji Nagata vs. Gabriel Kidd, Togi Makabe & Tomoaki Honma - 5.5/10
Ok opener, nothing special. Kidd obviously took the pin.
CHAOS (Tomohiro Ishii & Toru Yano) & Yota Tsuji vs. Los Ingobernables de Japon (BUSHI, Hiromu Takahashi & SANADA) - 7/10
This was great for your usual tag opener. Tsuji vs Takahashi was super fun, plus you can't go wrong with Ishii and Yano doing stuff with whoever. Takahashi submitted Tsuji with the Boston Crab and since we just relived the Yano/Hiromu story, I could imagine a world where Hiromu wants to be Tsuji's Yano.
Hiroyoshi Tenzan, Master Wato & Yuya Uemura vs. Suzuki-gun (DOUKI, El Desperado & Yoshinobu Kanemaru) - 4.5/10
When the best wrestler on your team is a Young Lion, you may as well just forfeit the match. Wato is a total fail so far and having Tenzan as your teacher is not the right way to go. Wato is blue, at least pair him up with BLUE Justice! SZKG were great, no complains there.
CHAOS (Hirooki Goto & Kazuchika Okada) vs. BULLET CLUB (Taiji Ishimori & Yujiro Takahashi) - 6/10
So here's the big thing that I started wondering yesterday, what's up with Yujiro, and indeed he seems to be getting a big push and maybe some Taichi level of rehab as he pinned Goto and took out Okada in one single match. I've always liked Yujiro for what he is, but it's hard to see him as a top guy, so let's see what Gedo can do with him.
The match was meh, Okada is totally on vacation until he gets a run for the title again it seems. Goto, probably knowing he's being pinned by Yujiro was also kinda there. I did like the finishing sequence that took out Goto.
Post-match - As mentioned, Yujiro hit Pimp Juice on Okada.
NEVER Openweight Title Match
Shingo Takagi (c) vs. SHO - 9/10
A hell of a match, it was virtually the same stuff they've done in their previous matches, and it makes it kinda hard to compare them because they're virtually the same, but I'd say that them being 1-1, I wasn't sure who was taking the title at the end, and so towards the end, the near falls got exciting and dramatic, and almost at the end, I was 99.99% sure that SHO was taking it, he's momentum just got really far, but Shingo turned things around pretty much with 3 strikes. Shingo won with the Last Dragon and between Masato Tanaka and Hiromu Takahashi, I think he's top 3 workers of the year so far.
I don't know where SHO goes from here, he could get a replacement of YOH to defend the tag titles, because otherwise, he won't have many places to go since Hiromu and Shingo are locked otherwise.
Post-match - Desperado attacked Shingo after the match, making his intentions for the title clear. Shingo vs Despy!
IWGP Tag Team Title Match
Golden Ace (c) vs. Dangerous Tekkers - 8.5/10
This was pretty much was I expected. DT working Tanahashi's legs like Dr. Giggles on his prey, but it also felt like the same thing I've been watching for the last month. It was great nonetheless, Tanahashi vs Sabre and Taichi vs Ibushi were the to pair ups that I really enjoyed here. It's really weird, but Taichi and Sabre really mesh up together, they have good chemistry, it's different than the Suzuki/Sabre combo, but there is something there for sure.
Zack Sabre has finally captured some gold in New Japan!
IWGP Heavyweight Title / IWGP Intercontinental Title Match
Tetsuya Naito (c) vs. EVIL - 8/10
EVIL has a new awesome theme, he has slightly changed his attire to look more like Xena Warrior Princess, and now has his hair flowing freely. I dig the change somewhat.
This was something really interesting that I can totally understand people not liking it, but I can also see the high rating of it. First let's talk about the bad. EVIL, like magic, immediately after joining Bullet Club, changed his heelish persona into the cocky one that stalls outside the ring. It's not a necesarily bad thing, but when facing a 'Tranquilo' Naito, it led to a really slow start. White can make the stalling work against a Naito, but not EVIL. This stalling will work against guys like Hiromu or Ibushi or Okada, but not somewhat Tranquilo like Naito or SANADA. I tried to argue with myself that Naito should had been more pissed with EVIL, but I don't think we're there yet and I think the post match made up for that.
The other big bad for me was the last minutes. We've seen it before where the heel has reached the point where he or she control the match, we know they're winning and it's just a matter of hitting the finisher to seal the deal, I'm usually not fond of these since it really lowers the momentum, but in this case, it really slowed down so much. It felt like EVIL 'sealed the deal' like 4 o 5 different times, and by the time the pin came, the crowd was dead silent. Maybe one final kick out and the kill would had save this.
Having said that, I thought the story was good, I didn't mind the interference, it was just two and not the million people are claiming, and one of them was for the purpose of revealing that Dick Togo has not only joined Bullet Club, but NJPW, and now I'm just gushing over a Togo vs Ishii or Togo vs Shingo match. Everyone knew it wasn't BUSHI, no need to mention that he didn't hid himself enough, because it was obvious. The only man that needed to be confused was Naito, which after being beat up and groggy, I'm sure he looked like BUSHI 100%.
I loved the work done on Naito's leg, it was brutal and I wouldn't take any less than what it was. It really felt like Naito held back all match, like he wasn't convinced he could attack his friend, the very first Ingobernable de Japon, and I think we also saw that from Milano Collection AT, who after crying the previous night, he still held the scythe with hopes that EVIL hadn't really turned on LIJ. I LOVED that Milano spot by the way.
Post-match - EVIL revealed Togo and they beat up Naito until Hiromu came down. Hiromu asked EVIL what it felt to betray his friends and challenged EVIL to a title match, even for only one title if EVIL was too scared. EVIL didn't say anything and left. Hiromu had a breakdown on anger at EVIL, true fury came out of him.
Backstage, Hiromu cut an AMAZING promo asking EVIL since when he had all this planned and said that he would get revenge for betraying him and for what he did to LIJ and Naito.
OVERALL THOUGHTS
Yeah, not the best show, we don't have to lie to ourselves, but let's also not pretend this is the same NJPW from January. This New Japan is more like 2011's where they're lacking depth and forced to push guys like Yujiro Takahashi and shuffle around people to keep the stables somewhat balanced. In addition, this was the weird combination of not having the two main titles to fill the card with more single's matches, and they didn't seem to want to start anything with Hiromu since he's chasing EVIL now. It is still one of the best shows since the 2020 pandemic started.
This still to me felt like the big celebration that things are normalizing themselves with Japanese wrestling
Cero Reviews NJPW Dominion in Osaka-Jo Hall 7.12
- Big Red Machine
- Posts: 27378
- Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 15:12
Re: Cero Reviews NJPW Dominion in Osaka-Jo Hall 7.12
I knew it looked familiar!
I don't understand this line of thought at all. The wound of betrayal stings most when it's the freshest, not after Naito has had months to processes it and several opportunities to get his hands on EVIL already.
I think they MAYBE could have made it work if they went in completely the opposite direction with it, with Naito being full-on tranquilo and doing the stalling and that getting EVIL upset, but they didn't do that. They just amde EVIL feel like a replacement for Jay White.
I think a lot of the issue that people had were these two things happening in combination with each other. The guy doing the results at F4W defended it a bit by saying "well... it was really just an extended angle, anyway," but the counterpoint to that is the Bryan Alvarez thing that if you're going to do a f*ck finish, don't waste so much of our time first. I think people would have been more okay with it if they went eighteen minutes and then did a f*ck finish instead of thirty-eight.cero2k wrote: ↑Jul 14th, '20, 13:51 The other big bad for me was the last minutes. We've seen it before where the heel has reached the point where he or she control the match, we know they're winning and it's just a matter of hitting the finisher to seal the deal, I'm usually not fond of these since it really lowers the momentum, but in this case, it really slowed down so much. It felt like EVIL 'sealed the deal' like 4 o 5 different times, and by the time the pin came, the crowd was dead silent. Maybe one final kick out and the kill would had save this.
Having said that, I thought the story was good, I didn't mind the interference, it was just two and not the million people are claiming, and one of them was for the purpose of revealing that Dick Togo has not only joined Bullet Club, but NJPW.
Also, doing a f*ck finish in this big match after doing one in a big match the previous night probably has some people worried that that's what we're going to be getting all the time with EVIL. It could well be that that's exactly what Gedo is planning and so, from a story point of view, this was the right way to do it, but if that's what he wants to do, I'd question his wisdom.
The other thing (and this is only occurring to me now) is that it's weird to do this finish and then not book Naito vs. Dick Togo, but that means beating Togo right away. Well... either that, Naito losing clean (which isn't going to happen because if they were going to do that, they would have done it here), or yet another f*ck finish. Togo feels kind of pointless.
I'm not saying that you haven't come up with a valid explanation for why Naito didn't realize that it wasn't BUSHI, but at the same time... would it really have been that hard to get an actual BUSHI mask? Why give it away to the fans right away (and, in storyline, why risk that Naito might realize that something is off if he isn't as aware as you think) when you could just put Dick Togo in an actual BUSHI mask. In every other promotion in the world the impersonator has no problem getting himself a Sting mask or Wyatt sheep mask or the mask of any Luchador ever. If imposter Kane managed to get himself an original Kane mask in 2006, and if The Flame managed to get himself a freakin' Santo mask in Florida in the 1970s, why couldn't Dick Togo get himself a BUSHI mask? Not having a real BUSHI mask had zero kayfabe drawbacks and a major non-kayfabe positive, so why not do it?
Hold #712: ARM BAR!
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Re: Cero Reviews NJPW Dominion in Osaka-Jo Hall 7.12
my idea was what i mentioned with Milano Collection. It hadn't been 24 hrs and there's still the idea of "this can't be real, right?", of EVIL is still our EVIL and he has a weird plan here. Hiromu seemed to be the only one who took it seriously. Maybe if this hadn't been back to back days, there would had been time for Naito to cut a promo, but he has been taken out twice and hasn't had a chance to even talk about EVIL.Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Jul 14th, '20, 14:47 I don't understand this line of thought at all. The wound of betrayal stings most when it's the freshest, not after Naito has had months to processes it and several opportunities to get his hands on EVIL already.
I think they MAYBE could have made it work if they went in completely the opposite direction with it, with Naito being full-on tranquilo and doing the stalling and that getting EVIL upset, but they didn't do that. They just amde EVIL feel like a replacement for Jay White.
I think this could work for a rematch, but this being EVIL's first BC match, gotta show him dominant mentally and physically.
those two 'fears', I really don't understand how anyone who follows NJPW could say that. we KNOW that Bullet Club matches have interference and sometimes fuck finishes, we also KNOW that because we see this back to back doesn't mean that Gedo is gonna do it every time. I don't know how people like Alvarez and Vinny pretend that NJPW doesn't do fuck finishes and that it's all 'sports'. I'm sure there's going to be more interference in the Okada and Hiromu matches for Sengoku Lord and that's not a bad thing.Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Jul 14th, '20, 14:47 I think a lot of the issue that people had were these two things happening in combination with each other. The guy doing the results at F4W defended it a bit by saying "well... it was really just an extended angle, anyway," but the counterpoint to that is the Bryan Alvarez thing that if you're going to do a f*ck finish, don't waste so much of our time first. I think people would have been more okay with it if they went eighteen minutes and then did a f*ck finish instead of thirty-eight.
Also, doing a f*ck finish in this big match after doing one in a big match the previous night probably has some people worried that that's what we're going to be getting all the time with EVIL. It could well be that that's exactly what Gedo is planning and so, from a story point of view, this was the right way to do it, but if that's what he wants to do, I'd question his wisdom.
The other thing (and this is only occurring to me now) is that it's weird to do this finish and then not book Naito vs. Dick Togo, but that means beating Togo right away. Well... either that, Naito losing clean (which isn't going to happen because if they were going to do that, they would have done it here), or yet another f*ck finish. Togo feels kind of pointless.
I can see Togo vs Naito happening on the Summer Struggle tour and I don't think Togo is someone to protect that hard, he's EVIL's 'pareja', so we can believe that he's strongest when EVIL and surely not at the level of a Naito. There's a Road To show on the 20th with LIJ vs BC, so they may start to work something there.
That was totally a BUSHI mask, it's one of the super old school masks and one of the ones he uses outside of the actual wrestling mask. I'm so sure that it was shoot BUSHI's gear and that's why Togo couldn't fit in. Could it had been better, sure, but I didn't think it was that bad to hurt the match whatsoever.Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Jul 14th, '20, 14:47 I'm not saying that you haven't come up with a valid explanation for why Naito didn't realize that it wasn't BUSHI, but at the same time... would it really have been that hard to get an actual BUSHI mask? Why give it away to the fans right away (and, in storyline, why risk that Naito might realize that something is off if he isn't as aware as you think) when you could just put Dick Togo in an actual BUSHI mask. In every other promotion in the world the impersonator has no problem getting himself a Sting mask or Wyatt sheep mask or the mask of any Luchador ever. If imposter Kane managed to get himself an original Kane mask in 2006, and if The Flame managed to get himself a freakin' Santo mask in Florida in the 1970s, why couldn't Dick Togo get himself a BUSHI mask? Not having a real BUSHI mask had zero kayfabe drawbacks and a major non-kayfabe positive, so why not do it?


- Big Red Machine
- Posts: 27378
- Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 15:12
Re: Cero Reviews NJPW Dominion in Osaka-Jo Hall 7.12
Maybe that works for Milano, but I don't think you can do that with a guy who was physically assaulted. Steen and Generico made it work, but the dynamic they had previously was NOTHING like Naito and EVIL. Naito and EVIL were just guys in the same stable.cero2k wrote: ↑Jul 14th, '20, 18:55my idea was what i mentioned with Milano Collection. It hadn't been 24 hrs and there's still the idea of "this can't be real, right?", of EVIL is still our EVIL and he has a weird plan here. Hiromu seemed to be the only one who took it seriously. Maybe if this hadn't been back to back days, there would had been time for Naito to cut a promo, but he has been taken out twice and hasn't had a chance to even talk about EVIL.Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Jul 14th, '20, 14:47 I don't understand this line of thought at all. The wound of betrayal stings most when it's the freshest, not after Naito has had months to processes it and several opportunities to get his hands on EVIL already.
I think they MAYBE could have made it work if they went in completely the opposite direction with it, with Naito being full-on tranquilo and doing the stalling and that getting EVIL upset, but they didn't do that. They just amde EVIL feel like a replacement for Jay White.
And the interference finish worked against that, IMO. You don't need interference if you're dominating. "Win if you can, lose if you must, but always cheat" is an outdated method of being a heel in a day and age where fans don't want to see bullsh*t in every matches, and especially big matches.
They get worried because there have been periods in the past where the company did go too heavy into f*ck finishes, and those have all involved big Bullet Club pushes (their initial run, and that G1 a few years ago with the Tongans particularly stand out). And at least during those periods, NJPW had a bunch of other guys they could put in top spots and not do that sh*t with. This time they're short a huge chunk of the roster (including most of the juniors, who didn't usually have that stuff, even when Bullet Club was involved). The top feuds are all Bullet Club and Suzuki-Gun, who have all of the bullsh*t in their matches. You've only got one top title now so you can't have one title for the run-ins and interference and still have Ibushi vs. Ospreay or whatever to main event for the other title without the BS, the junior heavyweight champion just got himself involved in the BS feud so he's not going to be defending his title, either. All we've got is the BS.cero2k wrote: ↑Jul 14th, '20, 18:55those two 'fears', I really don't understand how anyone who follows NJPW could say that. we KNOW that Bullet Club matches have interference and sometimes fuck finishes, we also KNOW that because we see this back to back doesn't mean that Gedo is gonna do it every time. I don't know how people like Alvarez and Vinny pretend that NJPW doesn't do fuck finishes and that it's all 'sports'. I'm sure there's going to be more interference in the Okada and Hiromu matches for Sengoku Lord and that's not a bad thing.Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Jul 14th, '20, 14:47 I think a lot of the issue that people had were these two things happening in combination with each other. The guy doing the results at F4W defended it a bit by saying "well... it was really just an extended angle, anyway," but the counterpoint to that is the Bryan Alvarez thing that if you're going to do a f*ck finish, don't waste so much of our time first. I think people would have been more okay with it if they went eighteen minutes and then did a f*ck finish instead of thirty-eight.
Also, doing a f*ck finish in this big match after doing one in a big match the previous night probably has some people worried that that's what we're going to be getting all the time with EVIL. It could well be that that's exactly what Gedo is planning and so, from a story point of view, this was the right way to do it, but if that's what he wants to do, I'd question his wisdom.
The other thing (and this is only occurring to me now) is that it's weird to do this finish and then not book Naito vs. Dick Togo, but that means beating Togo right away. Well... either that, Naito losing clean (which isn't going to happen because if they were going to do that, they would have done it here), or yet another f*ck finish. Togo feels kind of pointless.
And yes, BC has interference, but while Jay White had BS in his matches leading up to the big push, when they gave Jay White his big title win, there wasn't much (if any) bullsh*t. With EVIL here, there was bullsh*t in the big win, and coming just one night afterward bullsh*t in the establishing win... it starts to feel like AJ's reign, where there was bullsh*t when he won, then bullsh*t on the next show when Okada got his rematch... and AJ's run was one of the times that people thought the interference was going way overboard. They don't want to start feeling like WWE, with bullsh*t in half of the matches.
I guess I just feel like there's some heat to be had in Naito questing to get his hands on Togo rather than just booking a match and having Naito beat him. You don't bump the new heel manager right after he's done his big, impactful dastardly deed.cero2k wrote: ↑Jul 14th, '20, 18:55 I can see Togo vs Naito happening on the Summer Struggle tour and I don't think Togo is someone to protect that hard, he's EVIL's 'pareja', so we can believe that he's strongest when EVIL and surely not at the level of a Naito. There's a Road To show on the 20th with LIJ vs BC, so they may start to work something there.
If we're supposed to think it's actually BUSHI- even for a split second- then there is no reason not to use the same mask BUSHI is wearing for his match that day. Reaching back into the annals of history isn't helpful if it's not a mask people will see and immediately think "that's BUSHI's mask!"cero2k wrote: ↑Jul 14th, '20, 18:55That was totally a BUSHI mask, it's one of the super old school masks and one of the ones he uses outside of the actual wrestling mask. I'm so sure that it was shoot BUSHI's gear and that's why Togo couldn't fit in. Could it had been better, sure, but I didn't think it was that bad to hurt the match whatsoever.Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Jul 14th, '20, 14:47 I'm not saying that you haven't come up with a valid explanation for why Naito didn't realize that it wasn't BUSHI, but at the same time... would it really have been that hard to get an actual BUSHI mask? Why give it away to the fans right away (and, in storyline, why risk that Naito might realize that something is off if he isn't as aware as you think) when you could just put Dick Togo in an actual BUSHI mask. In every other promotion in the world the impersonator has no problem getting himself a Sting mask or Wyatt sheep mask or the mask of any Luchador ever. If imposter Kane managed to get himself an original Kane mask in 2006, and if The Flame managed to get himself a freakin' Santo mask in Florida in the 1970s, why couldn't Dick Togo get himself a BUSHI mask? Not having a real BUSHI mask had zero kayfabe drawbacks and a major non-kayfabe positive, so why not do it?
Hold #712: ARM BAR!
Upcoming Reviews:
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ROH/CMLL Global Wars Espectacular: Day 3
Re: Cero Reviews NJPW Dominion in Osaka-Jo Hall 7.12
not at all, EVIL was Naito's first LIJ guy, they go way back, why do you think that EVIL is making such a fuzz about 'Pareja'? that's how Naito brought him in. You really overrate physical attacks, especially to Naito. You're also assuming that people who get betrayed just straight up turn on that person with zero forgiveness zero feelings.Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Jul 14th, '20, 20:04 Maybe that works for Milano, but I don't think you can do that with a guy who was physically assaulted. Steen and Generico made it work, but the dynamic they had previously was NOTHING like Naito and EVIL. Naito and EVIL were just guys in the same stable.
dominance doesn't have to be 100%, interference helps you keep it as close to that when you lose your standing.Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Jul 14th, '20, 20:04 And the interference finish worked against that, IMO. You don't need interference if you're dominating. "Win if you can, lose if you must, but always cheat" is an outdated method of being a heel in a day and age where fans don't want to see bullsh*t in every matches, and especially big matches.
It's not outdated at all! A lot of wrestlers make great use of it, just because you're now giving OC 8/10s doesn't mean that things are outdated now. If people don't want cheating, then stop watching Bullet Club matches since they should know by now that it's what they do, it's been like that for almost a decade now. If people want PURE SPORTS wrestling, then watch AJPW.
NJPW is still MILES away from WWE, it's actually WWE's fault that people think that ALL interference and fuck finishes are bad. I see what you're saying, but I think it's a bit of an exaggeration to think that those seasons were dark times or anything like that that people need to get worried about, otherwise I have to assume these people have stopped watching all type of US based wrestlingBig Red Machine wrote: ↑Jul 14th, '20, 20:04 They get worried because there have been periods in the past where the company did go too heavy into f*ck finishes, and those have all involved big Bullet Club pushes (their initial run, and that G1 a few years ago with the Tongans particularly stand out). And at least during those periods, NJPW had a bunch of other guys they could put in top spots and not do that sh*t with. This time they're short a huge chunk of the roster (including most of the juniors, who didn't usually have that stuff, even when Bullet Club was involved). The top feuds are all Bullet Club and Suzuki-Gun, who have all of the bullsh*t in their matches. You've only got one top title now so you can't have one title for the run-ins and interference and still have Ibushi vs. Ospreay or whatever to main event for the other title without the BS, the junior heavyweight champion just got himself involved in the BS feud so he's not going to be defending his title, either. All we've got is the BS.
And yes, BC has interference, but while Jay White had BS in his matches leading up to the big push, when they gave Jay White his big title win, there wasn't much (if any) bullsh*t. With EVIL here, there was bullsh*t in the big win, and coming just one night afterward bullsh*t in the establishing win... it starts to feel like AJ's reign, where there was bullsh*t when he won, then bullsh*t on the next show when Okada got his rematch... and AJ's run was one of the times that people thought the interference was going way overboard. They don't want to start feeling like WWE, with bullsh*t in half of the matches.
Sure, Togo hasn't been given a singles match yet, so we'll have to wait and see what they do. I personally don't think they need to make something out of Naito vs Togo when he's only a second at this point.Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Jul 14th, '20, 20:04 I guess I just feel like there's some heat to be had in Naito questing to get his hands on Togo rather than just booking a match and having Naito beat him. You don't bump the new heel manager right after he's done his big, impactful dastardly deed.
He's dressed up as BUSHI, he wears a thousand masks, we're not trying to trick anyone, and i'm 99.99% sure no one would remember what mask BUSHI was wearing earlier when Togo came out. It didn't hurt anything at all.Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Jul 14th, '20, 20:04 If we're supposed to think it's actually BUSHI- even for a split second- then there is no reason not to use the same mask BUSHI is wearing for his match that day. Reaching back into the annals of history isn't helpful if it's not a mask people will see and immediately think "that's BUSHI's mask!"

- Big Red Machine
- Posts: 27378
- Joined: Dec 16th, '10, 15:12
Re: Cero Reviews NJPW Dominion in Osaka-Jo Hall 7.12
Who the hell would forgive someone the day after they turned on you when they haven't done a damn thing to earn your forgiveness?! And especially when they physically assault you! What the f*ck would it take for you to think someone needs to show anger, then? Would EVIL need to rape Naito's significant other, sell his children into slavery and bite the head off of his puppy?cero2k wrote: ↑Jul 15th, '20, 15:42not at all, EVIL was Naito's first LIJ guy, they go way back, why do you think that EVIL is making such a fuzz about 'Pareja'? that's how Naito brought him in. You really overrate physical attacks, especially to Naito. You're also assuming that people who get betrayed just straight up turn on that person with zero forgiveness zero feelings.Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Jul 14th, '20, 20:04 Maybe that works for Milano, but I don't think you can do that with a guy who was physically assaulted. Steen and Generico made it work, but the dynamic they had previously was NOTHING like Naito and EVIL. Naito and EVIL were just guys in the same stable.
If you want feelings, you have to show them, both before and after. You have to show me Naito and EVIL being buddies and standing up for each other if you want me to think that they're close friends and not just coworkers or allies. NJPW doesn't do that. Guys barely ever save each other from beat-downs, so how close could they possibly be? If one of my friends is getting jumped, I'm rushing in there, not sitting on my ass in the back. I know that different cultures are different, but I'm pretty sure that in most places if someone betrays you and assaults you, the f*cking norm is to be angry at them.
But if the role of the interference is to interrupt the other guy's comeback, then you're not dominating because you're not doing it by yourself.cero2k wrote: ↑Jul 15th, '20, 15:42dominance doesn't have to be 100%, interference helps you keep it as close to that when you lose your standing.Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Jul 14th, '20, 20:04 And the interference finish worked against that, IMO. You don't need interference if you're dominating. "Win if you can, lose if you must, but always cheat" is an outdated method of being a heel in a day and age where fans don't want to see bullsh*t in every matches, and especially big matches.
It's not outdated at all! A lot of wrestlers make great use of it, just because you're now giving OC 8/10s doesn't mean that things are outdated now. If people don't want cheating, then stop watching Bullet Club matches since they should know by now that it's what they do, it's been like that for almost a decade now. If people want PURE SPORTS wrestling, then watch AJPW.
Yes, they're miles away from WWE, but this is what our sample-size is for COVID-era NJPW. Is it too early to make fair judgments? Perhaps. But that won't stop people from wondering.cero2k wrote: ↑Jul 15th, '20, 15:42NJPW is still MILES away from WWE, it's actually WWE's fault that people think that ALL interference and fuck finishes are bad. I see what you're saying, but I think it's a bit of an exaggeration to think that those seasons were dark times or anything like that that people need to get worried about, otherwise I have to assume these people have stopped watching all type of US based wrestlingBig Red Machine wrote: ↑Jul 14th, '20, 20:04 They get worried because there have been periods in the past where the company did go too heavy into f*ck finishes, and those have all involved big Bullet Club pushes (their initial run, and that G1 a few years ago with the Tongans particularly stand out). And at least during those periods, NJPW had a bunch of other guys they could put in top spots and not do that sh*t with. This time they're short a huge chunk of the roster (including most of the juniors, who didn't usually have that stuff, even when Bullet Club was involved). The top feuds are all Bullet Club and Suzuki-Gun, who have all of the bullsh*t in their matches. You've only got one top title now so you can't have one title for the run-ins and interference and still have Ibushi vs. Ospreay or whatever to main event for the other title without the BS, the junior heavyweight champion just got himself involved in the BS feud so he's not going to be defending his title, either. All we've got is the BS.
And yes, BC has interference, but while Jay White had BS in his matches leading up to the big push, when they gave Jay White his big title win, there wasn't much (if any) bullsh*t. With EVIL here, there was bullsh*t in the big win, and coming just one night afterward bullsh*t in the establishing win... it starts to feel like AJ's reign, where there was bullsh*t when he won, then bullsh*t on the next show when Okada got his rematch... and AJ's run was one of the times that people thought the interference was going way overboard. They don't want to start feeling like WWE, with bullsh*t in half of the matches.
There is also the issue that we've seen this happen before in other promotions (ROH being the most prominent in recent years, but this was also people's problem with Jado's booking of NOAH, if I recall correctly) where a company previously big on clean finishes starts going to f*ck finishes for heat and/or to stall out the calendar. Given wrestling history, I don't think it's unfair to at least be on the lookout for the signs that Gedo might wind up going the same way as many other promotions have before. If even GABE fell victim to it at one point, surely Gedo can.
There is also always going to be an overreaction when you have a promotion that rarely does f*ck finishes in big matches does multiple in a short span of time. In some cases it's not warranted, but some times it winds up being justified. I think this one is a big exacerbation point for people because they understood that last night's was necessary to establish the turn, but this one served no real purpose. You could have done the Dick Togo reveal last night, too, by having a masked man come out and distract the referee while Yujiro ran in, and then reveal that it was Togo after the match. The only reason to do it tonight would be to specifically set up Togo vs. Naito... and doesn't anyone really want to see that, when you look at all of the other people Naito could be wrestling?
Only a second? Yes. But he is the guy who had the big interference spot. And, if your theory is correct that he is going to be to EVIL like Gedo is to Jay White, doesn't that make him the influence who helped convince EVIL to turn on Naito? If that's not the case, then putting EVIL and Togo together is completely random.cero2k wrote: ↑Jul 15th, '20, 15:42Sure, Togo hasn't been given a singles match yet, so we'll have to wait and see what they do. I personally don't think they need to make something out of Naito vs Togo when he's only a second at this point.Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Jul 14th, '20, 20:04 I guess I just feel like there's some heat to be had in Naito questing to get his hands on Togo rather than just booking a match and having Naito beat him. You don't bump the new heel manager right after he's done his big, impactful dastardly deed.
It's not the specific mask so much as the style. BUSHI does the mist. It's probably the move everyone most connects with him, so everyone knows his mask has a mouth-hole. And I do think it does damage if you had to dig for an explanation for why this guy's presence fooled Naito when everyone else in the world didn't think it was BUSHI for even a split second.cero2k wrote: ↑Jul 15th, '20, 15:42He's dressed up as BUSHI, he wears a thousand masks, we're not trying to trick anyone, and i'm 99.99% sure no one would remember what mask BUSHI was wearing earlier when Togo came out. It didn't hurt anything at all.Big Red Machine wrote: ↑Jul 14th, '20, 20:04 If we're supposed to think it's actually BUSHI- even for a split second- then there is no reason not to use the same mask BUSHI is wearing for his match that day. Reaching back into the annals of history isn't helpful if it's not a mask people will see and immediately think "that's BUSHI's mask!"
Hold #712: ARM BAR!
Upcoming Reviews:
FIP in 2005
ROH Validation
PWG All-Star Weekend V: Night 2
DGUSA Open the Ultimate Gate 2013
ROH/CMLL Global Wars Espectacular: Day 3
Upcoming Reviews:
FIP in 2005
ROH Validation
PWG All-Star Weekend V: Night 2
DGUSA Open the Ultimate Gate 2013
ROH/CMLL Global Wars Espectacular: Day 3
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