BRM Reviews NJPW New Beginning in Sapporo 2017

[Big Red Machine]

NJPW New Beginning in Sapporo 2017 (2/5/2017)- Sapporo, Japan

HIRAI KAWATO & KUSHIDA vs. SUZUKI-GUN (El Desperado & Yoshinobu Kanemaru)- 4.75/10
Kevin Kelly and Cyrus are wondering whether Suzuki-Gun had “inside help” in getting access to the building, essentially implying that there is a traitor in New Japan’s midst. I hate to pre-judge something, but anything that makes me think of the Aces & Eights will do that. Also, I just assumed that they got into the building by just buying tickets.
This was a fun little match and Suzuki-Gun winning was obviously the right way to start off the night. After the match Kanemaru came back and gave the babyfaces a couple of more shots.

YOSHITATSU, HENARE, & DAVID FINLAY JR. vs. SATOSHI KOJIMA, HIROYOSHI TENZAN, & YUJI NAGATA- 4/10

JUSHIN “THUNDER” LIGER, TIGER MASK IV & KATSUYORI SHIBATA vs. CHAOS (Will Ospreay, Jado, & Gedo)- 4.75/10
CHAOS wins when Ospreay gets the pin. Shiabta attacked him right afterwards because SHIBATA is a dick. Thankfully Ospreay fought him off and laid him out with the Os-cutter.

YOSHI-HASHI vs. TAKASHI IIZUKA (w/El Desperado)- 0.5/10
I removed all sharp objects from the room before this match, just in case Iizuka drives me to attempt self-harm. He didn’t, but it was close. I don’t understand why New Japan (or anyone in wrestling) continues to employs this loser.

LOS INGOBERNABLES DE JAPON vs. HIROSHI TANAHASHI, MICHAEL ELGIN, RYUSUKE TAGUCHI, DRAGON LEE, & MANABU NAKANISHI- 6.75/10
Lots of stuff to build Elgin up for his IWGP Intercontinental Title shot against Naito next weekend. Also, the stuff to build up Takahashi vs. Dragon Lee was pretty sweet, too.

IWGP JR. HEAVYWEIGHT TAG TEAM TITLE MATCH: Roppongi Vice(c) vs. Suzuki-Gun (TAKA Michinoku & Taichi) (w/Suzuki-Gun)- 6.5/10
There were some rocky moments in here (no pun intended) but they pulled things together by the end. The finish was kind of shocking, but I think it served its purpose as being that curveball in the beginning to keep you off balance for the rest of the matches where the finish seems obvious going in.

NEVER OPENWEIGHT TTLE MATCH: Hirooki Goto(c) vs. Juice Robinson- 7/10
Juice was GREAT in this match as the young babyface out to prove himself against the grizzled veteran. His big fighting spirit spot was great.

IWGP HEAVYWEIGHT TAG TEAM TITLE MATCH: CHAOS (Tomohiro Ishii & Toru Yano)(c) vs. Togi Makabe & Tomoako Honma vs. Killer Elite Squad- 3.75/10
Cyrus made a MATRATS reference!
Yano’s whole f*cking ENTRANCE VIDEO is clips of him cheating. Someone please give me a kayfabe explanation for why New Japan allows this.
Those despicable f*cking cheaters won. And when I say this I don’t mean Suzuki-Gun. I mean CHAOS. You know… the guys who are theoretically the babyfaces.

IWGP HEAVYWEIGHT TITLE MATCH: Kazuchika Okada(c) (w/Gedo) vs. Minoru Suzuki (w/Taichi)- 9.75/10
Yeah, I know, it’s YET ANOTHER Okada match this year that everyone else loves but I couldn’t quite give the full 10/10 to. Suzuki had already damaged Okada’s knee at a press conference and he spent the first thirty to thirty-five minutes of this one working it over for lots of good false finishes which all culminated in one that was… well… too good. Okada was in the knee-bar for what had to be five straight minutes without tapping, and it felt like too much. I know that sounds a little strange because I’m sure I’ve seen something equivalent to this before and been fine with it but… this is MINORU SUZUKI we’re talking about. How has he not gotten this f*cker to tap in five minutes of a knee-bar alone, never mind on top of everything he did before? I also wasn’t thrilled with Okada running around on it afterwards, either, even if it was only for a few seconds, because it felt like he had just taken too much. It felt like Okada should, like, need to take a few months off (like, say, until Invasion Attack) to heal his knee, but that’s not going to happen. Don’t get me wrong, the match was still excellent and there was more going on in it than that (Okada worked over Suzuki’s neck pretty consistently as well), but it really feels like the right finish here should have been Gedo throwing in the towel.
They hit the point where you figured that they were going to go to a one-hour Broadway, but then Suzuki just lost… like the rest of his stable did. It was quite odd for some big invaders who just spent a long time laying waste to Pro Wrestling NOAH.


This was an… interesting show from New Japan. Suzuki-Gun lost every single one of their matches aside from the opener. It almost seems like this entire Suzuki-Gun invasion was a swerve to make us think something bigger was going on. At the very least the goal here seems to have been to say “this is not the Suzuki-Gun vs. NOAH feud all over again.” Meanwhile, Bullet Club was off the show entirely, which felt fresh, but also makes you think that Suzuki-Gun was just brought in as place-holders for Bullet Club for a month or two (or perhaps that they would have gotten a bigger push if Omega hadn’t re-signed, and now that appears to have done so New Japan sees Suzuki-Gun as expendable). This was a one-match show, but that match is certainly a match that you MUST watch. If we don’t ever get another Suzuki vs. Okada match, this one was good enough that I will be fine with never getting another.

[cero2k]

This was an… interesting show from New Japan. Suzuki-Gun lost every single one of their matches aside from the opener. It almost seems like this entire Suzuki-Gun invasion was a swerve to make us think something bigger was going on. At the very least the goal here seems to have been to say “this is not the Suzuki-Gun vs. NOAH feud all over again.” Meanwhile, Bullet Club was off the show entirely, which felt fresh, but also makes you think that Suzuki-Gun was just brought in as place-holders for Bullet Club for a month or two (or perhaps that they would have gotten a bigger push if Omega hadn’t re-signed, and now that appears to have done so New Japan sees Suzuki-Gun as expendable). This was a one-match show, but that match is certainly a match that you MUST watch. If we don’t ever get another Suzuki vs. Okada match, this one was good enough that I will be fine with never getting another.

in WOR they were thinking that losing so hard this show probably means that on tuesday it will be The Empire Strikes Back and Suzukigun will demolish everyone in Osaka and surely all the big titles aren't on the line anymore.

[Big Red Machine]

This was an… interesting show from New Japan. Suzuki-Gun lost every single one of their matches aside from the opener. It almost seems like this entire Suzuki-Gun invasion was a swerve to make us think something bigger was going on. At the very least the goal here seems to have been to say “this is not the Suzuki-Gun vs. NOAH feud all over again.” Meanwhile, Bullet Club was off the show entirely, which felt fresh, but also makes you think that Suzuki-Gun was just brought in as place-holders for Bullet Club for a month or two (or perhaps that they would have gotten a bigger push if Omega hadn’t re-signed, and now that appears to have done so New Japan sees Suzuki-Gun as expendable). This was a one-match show, but that match is certainly a match that you MUST watch. If we don’t ever get another Suzuki vs. Okada match, this one was good enough that I will be fine with never getting another.

in WOR they were thinking that losing so hard this show probably means that on tuesday it will be The Empire Strikes Back and Suzukigun will demolish everyone in Osaka and surely all the big titles aren't on the line anymore.

I had thought about this while watching it, and the conclusion I came to is that they'll have to go the full Empire Strikes Back, including Okada getting his hand cut off and Tanahashi being frozen in Carbonite. New Japan has just had too many times where guys lose a title match and then just get one the next month and win that to make this feel different/bigger/more dangerous they'll really have to destroy some guys and put them on the shelf, and I don't mean young boys, Yoshitatsu and then throw in, like, Nagata to "prove that it's serious." I mean like Tanahashi, Okada, Shibata, Goto, Elgin type of guys. But New Japan will never do this because they like having everyone on every show, and they especially won't do it on Tuesday because they have a card already announced for Saturday and they don't do that sort of thing.
There is definitely interesting stuff they could do like turn Bullet Club babyface because New Japan is their place of employment while LIJ stay on the sidelines because they can just go work CMLL and ROH, but then have them finally join in to set up the final battle against Suzuki-Gun where you've got the top guys from all three groups all teaming up to fight of Suzuki-Gun and they win... only for LIJ to beat the sh*t out of everyone immediately afterward, but that will never happen because New Japan doesn't book that way.

[cero2k]

my mistake, i meant the saturday card. I'm looking at it, Suzuki gun has only 3 matches and the rest are mostly LIJ. It could be an all heel show.


Suzuki-gun (El Desperado, Takashi Iizuka & Yoshinobu Kanemaru) vs. TenKoji (Hiroyoshi Tenzan & Satoshi Kojima) & KUSHIDA
CHAOS (Beretta, Kazuchika Okada & Rocky Romero) vs. Suzuki-gun (Minoru Suzuki, Taichi & TAKA Michinoku)
CHAOS (c) vs. Great Bash Heel vs. Killer Elite Squad

all these can go to Suzukigun, even Suzuki himself pinning Okada (and surely keep working Okada's leg) and KES winning the titles (which i think we all want)


Hiroshi Tanahashi, Manabu Nakanishi & Ryusuke Taguchi (c) vs. Los Ingobernables de Japon
Tetsuya Naito (c) vs. Michael Elgin
Hiromu Takahashi (c) vs. Dragon Lee

all these should end with LIJ controlling the titles IMO

the only left is Ospreay vs Shibata, which could go anyway.

I'm starting to think that Bullet Club could return as faces, someone needs to turn and join SuzukiGun, I just feel something is coming.

[Big Red Machine]

my mistake, i meant the saturday card. I'm looking at it, Suzuki gun has only 3 matches and the rest are mostly LIJ. It could be an all heel show.


Suzuki-gun (El Desperado, Takashi Iizuka & Yoshinobu Kanemaru) vs. TenKoji (Hiroyoshi Tenzan & Satoshi Kojima) & KUSHIDA
CHAOS (Beretta, Kazuchika Okada & Rocky Romero) vs. Suzuki-gun (Minoru Suzuki, Taichi & TAKA Michinoku)
CHAOS (c) vs. Great Bash Heel vs. Killer Elite Squad

all these can go to Suzukigun, even Suzuki himself pinning Okada (and surely keep working Okada's leg) and KES winning the titles (which i think we all want)


Hiroshi Tanahashi, Manabu Nakanishi & Ryusuke Taguchi (c) vs. Los Ingobernables de Japon
Tetsuya Naito (c) vs. Michael Elgin
Hiromu Takahashi (c) vs. Dragon Lee

all these should end with LIJ controlling the titles IMO

the only left is Ospreay vs Shibata, which could go anyway.

I'm starting to think that Bullet Club could return as faces, someone needs to turn and join SuzukiGun, I just feel something is coming.

But if the idea is to push Suzuki-Gun as the top, killer heels, LIJ become awkward. I agree that Naito should keep his belt and I think that that belt should be kept out of the Suzuki-Gun picture. If they were going to get really creative they send Naito to ROH and CMLL and RevPro with it fairly often. The IGWP Junior Heavyweight Title can also probably be kept away for a bit, but there will come a time where we will need to get Kanemaru facing off against Dragon Lee or KUSHIDA for the belt
K.E.S. should definitely have the heavyweight tag belts, and the booking of this kayfabe pointless (at the time it was announced) rematch almost certainly seems to guarantee them a win here, but then what is the point of having them win here if you were going to beat them the week before when you could have just had Honma or Makabe take the loss?
If the six-man tag titles aren't going to stay with the LIJ trio for a long time they need to be thrown out (hopefully in the same dumpster that the ROH ones should be in, so we can blow the dumpster up and never have to speak of them again).

[cero2k]

But if the idea is to push Suzuki-Gun as the top, killer heels, LIJ become awkward.

why can't you have both? that's the good thing that comes with a well booked IC title that means as much as the world title, this is no different from when CHAOS and Suzuki-Gun were strong at the same time. no one in LIJ is left to challenge for the other titles while no one is left in Suzukigun that is worth pushing to the titles that LIJ has, so then you hace CHAOS chasing Suzukigun and NJPW-gun chasing LIJ, and then you can play around the idea of a dream match when Naito and Suzuki cross paths. And then BC returns.

Each team has their own 'ace' guy, I kinda see it as like when WWF had Taker/Austin/DX/Hart/Mankind all roamed around the main event scene, or to a lesser extent, how LU has 4 or 5 top guys that while not all chase the title at the same time, you know that Matanza and Muertes are both bosses in the game and Rey and Puma are your heroes, and the wildcard Pentagon.

[Big Red Machine]

But if the idea is to push Suzuki-Gun as the top, killer heels, LIJ become awkward.

why can't you have both? that's the good thing that comes with a well booked IC title that means as much as the world title, this is no different from when CHAOS and Suzuki-Gun were strong at the same time. no one in LIJ is left to challenge for the other titles while no one is left in Suzukigun that is worth pushing to the titles that LIJ has, so then you hace CHAOS chasing Suzukigun and NJPW-gun chasing LIJ, and then you can play around the idea of a dream match when Naito and Suzuki cross paths. And then BC returns.

1. CHAOS never really across as heels the way that Suzuki-Gun, Bullet Club, and LIJ have.
2. Because Kanemaru and Takahashi overlap, and Takahashi is at the point where, if we're trying to establish him, he needs to keep the belt for a while... and that gets even more complicated by the need to establish Ospreay and Dragon Lee.
3. Because we've already been getting LIJ vs. NJPW-Gun for seven months now. Once this weekend is over we've have seen Naito take on Elgin and Tanahashi and Shibata, and we've seen both BUSHI and Takahashi take on KUSHIDA and we've seen EVIL take on Elgin and Shibata so what's left?

Each team has their own 'ace' guy, I kinda see it as like when WWF had Taker/Austin/DX/Hart/Mankind all roamed around the main event scene, or to a lesser extent, how LU has 4 or 5 top guys that while not all chase the title at the same time, you know that Matanza and Muertes are both bosses in the game and Rey and Puma are your heroes, and the wildcard Pentagon.

4. The difference between the what you're proposing above and what you're pointing to here is that New Japan doesn't book like this. Top guys are always in the title picture for one of the top two titles. When was the last time we had more than a month or two when the guys in the title picture weren't Okada/Tanahashi/Naito or Okada/Tanahashi/Nakamura/AJ. There was a brief few months in 2015 when They were running with AJ/Ibushi and then Nakamura/Goto, but aside from that it's always been those same guys (and for the brief period time that Okada and Tanahashi were out of the title picture, they were both doing the exact same angle).
What's the difference between Bullet Club, LIJ, and Suzuki-Gun? Nothing. Or, at beast, it's that LIJ throw belts and BUSHI sometimes uses the mist while BC does their 1990s Kliq schtik. Other than that all do the same cheating and they do it in every single f*cking match. There was barely any difference between Bullet Club invasion once it really got started and the Suzuki-Gun invasion of NOAH. New Japan almost never books blood feuds, which is the sort of thing that Hunter, Rock, and Foley would be off doing when Taker faced Austin for the title. Hell they won't even move Tanahashi over to the heavyweight tag division which DESPERATELY needs both starpower and a shake-up (and Tanahashi probably desperately needs a rest) while they do their best to establish a Shibata or Omega or Ishii as a top singles guy. It's just not what they do.
Muertes and Matanza are both big scary monsters, but their motivations appear to be very different, thus they feel different. The difference between Rey and Puma is that Rey is already proven while Puma is out to prove himself. In New Japan everyone just wants the belts. The more I look at them over an extended period of time, the more it feels like NJPW has gotten EXTREMELY lucky that they have had some extremely talented and charismatic workers. New Japan deserve credit for their eye for talent and I'll assume that the office is the one behind protecting some finishers the way they have (the Bomba ye being the notable exception) but as far as actual ideas, Gedo doesn't seem to have many. He's not Gabe or Heyman or Cornette or even Vince who have shown the ability to get guys over via interesting storylines. He's Dana White booking a worked UFC. If the fighters weren't so exciting, the promotion would be boring as hell.

[cero2k]

1. maybe not as much, but back in the day, they were definitely heel, but Nakamura and Okada got way over.

2. Then don't force Kanemaru into the title yet, or if they do, that's just one match between then, one match doesn't mean the stable war is going on

3. We got the same feuds over all titles for the last 4 yrs, it doesn't mean it's necessarily bad. Add Ricochet/Nagata/Juice/Finlay into some of those feuds. Ricochet vs Takahashi or Sanada. Nagata vs EVIL.

4. and you can go with any combination of those 5 guys for the big shows, have guys like Ishii, Shibata, Cody, EVIL challenge during the smaller shows. Any promotion tends to keep a set of wrestlers around the title at all time, and if there is something we can't shit about gedo is that he does pay attention to those titles, it is really rare the a challenger doesn't feel worthy.
Granted all storylines in NJPW revolve around the titles in contrast to LU and WWE that have 'personal' motivations. NJPW is not a heavy gimmicked promotion like WWE, but there is definitely a different between them. One is a gaijin group, one is a group of a reject and his followers, another about a shooter and his followers, one is a bunch of guys defending the honor of their home promotion.

If the fighters weren't so exciting, the promotion would be boring as hell.

doesn't that apply to all promotions? even LU's stories would suck with just a bunch of generic humans. Dragon's rise to the title at WM wouldn't have worked if Dragon wasn't exciting.

[Big Red Machine]

3. We got the same feuds over all titles for the last 4 yrs, it doesn't mean it's necessarily bad. Add Ricochet/Nagata/Juice/Finlay into some of those feuds. Ricochet vs Takahashi or Sanada. Nagata vs EVIL.

The NEVER and IWGP Junior Heavyweight Title scenes have changed significantly at the least.

4. and you can go with any combination of those 5 guys for the big shows, have guys like Ishii, Shibata, Cody, EVIL challenge during the smaller shows. Any promotion tends to keep a set of wrestlers around the title at all time, and if there is something we can't shit about gedo is that he does pay attention to those titles, it is really rare the a challenger doesn't feel worthy.
Granted all storylines in NJPW revolve around the titles in contrast to LU and WWE that have 'personal' motivations. NJPW is not a heavy gimmicked promotion like WWE, but there is definitely a different between them. One is a gaijin group, one is a group of a reject and his followers, another about a shooter and his followers, one is a bunch of guys defending the honor of their home promotion.

Except that having smaller names challenge at the smaller shows isn't what New Japan has been doing. They're pretty much only been having each title defended once every few months. Marufuji was the only guy Okada defended against between winning the belt and the Tokyo Dome. The IC belt wasn't on the line at KOPW, Invasion Attack or Dontaku. I'm pretty sure that Wrestle Kingdom and Dominion are the only two shows where both belts have been on the line at the same show, despite having a plethora of available challengers. From the G1 alone neither Fale nor Ishii have gotten title shots for pinning Okada, only Naito got a shot at the IC belt despite others having pinning Elgin, and of the people who beat Omega, only YOSHI-HASHI got a briefcase match.
As for the different stables, while that might be their motivation, it never plays itself out different once the bell rings.

If the fighters weren't so exciting, the promotion would be boring as hell.

doesn't that apply to all promotions? even LU's stories would suck with just a bunch of generic humans. Dragon's rise to the title at WM wouldn't have worked if Dragon wasn't exciting.

To an extent, you're right, but CHIKARA and LU have both taken guys whose work alone isn't particularly exciting and elevated them by telling interesting stories with them. You can say that Gabe did the same with Jimmy Jacobs in ROH and tried to do it with Thatcher this year. Heyman did it with a million guys. If you get a time machine and give Gabe the book in the AWA in 1985 I think you get a much more exciting product capable of making the fans care about more wrestlers than what Verne gave us. Look at the difference between OVW when Cornette or Heyman were booking it as opposed to when Al Snow or whoever was booking it. Storylines enable you to find and focus on your wrestlers' strengths in a way that just putting matches together doesn't.

[cero2k]

Except that having smaller names challenge at the smaller shows isn't what New Japan has been doing. They're pretty much only been having each title defended once every few months. Marufuji was the only guy Okada defended against between winning the belt and the Tokyo Dome. The IC belt wasn't on the line at KOPW, Invasion Attack or Dontaku. I'm pretty sure that Wrestle Kingdom and Dominion are the only two shows where both belts have been on the line at the same show, despite having a plethora of available challengers.
that's a good thing, if both titles are equally important, there is no need to defend them both at the same show, rather each can main event different shows

From the G1 alone neither Fale nor Ishii have gotten title shots for pinning Okada, only Naito got a shot at the IC belt despite others having pinning Elgin, and of the people who beat Omega, only YOSHI-HASHI got a briefcase match.
but that's beyond the point, you still do main events that are different from using the same 4/5 guys all the time

As for the different stables, while that might be their motivation, it never plays itself out different once the bell rings.
actually it does, that's why some of the BC are all showboating, Suzuki is definitely a shooter in the ring, all LIJ are zero fucks tranquilo, most of the NJPW faces are all babyface fire when it comes to it

To an extent, you're right, but CHIKARA and LU have both taken guys whose work alone isn't particularly exciting and elevated them by telling interesting stories with them. You can say that Gabe did the same with Jimmy Jacobs in ROH and tried to do it with Thatcher this year. Heyman did it with a million guys. If you get a time machine and give Gabe the book in the AWA in 1985 I think you get a much more exciting product capable of making the fans care about more wrestlers than what Verne gave us. Look at the difference between OVW when Cornette or Heyman were booking it as opposed to when Al Snow or whoever was booking it. Storylines enable you to find and focus on your wrestlers' strengths in a way that just putting matches together doesn't.
yeah, one or two, there are surely exceptions, we could say the same with someone like Honma or Naito who were kinda irrelevant some time ago (great wrestlers tho), and found a way to get them over with their stories. But like with Thatcher, i just had to watch his entrance once and i wanted to see him wrestle regardless of the story, a bunch of LU guys are interesting just for being unknown luchadors in the US. CHIKARA was like this in the beginning when it was unique to see wrestling ants, ice creams, or a warlock bug, but now that there are a bunch of crabs and frogs and a million ants, you really need a good story to get them over and surely it hasn't worked as much. at least it's a 50/50 thing

[Big Red Machine]

Except that having smaller names challenge at the smaller shows isn't what New Japan has been doing. They're pretty much only been having each title defended once every few months. Marufuji was the only guy Okada defended against between winning the belt and the Tokyo Dome. The IC belt wasn't on the line at KOPW, Invasion Attack or Dontaku. I'm pretty sure that Wrestle Kingdom and Dominion are the only two shows where both belts have been on the line at the same show, despite having a plethora of available challengers.
that's a good thing, if both titles are equally important, there is no need to defend them both at the same show, rather each can main event different shows
I think it hurts the prestige of the titles to be defended so rarely. I'd rather see both of them defended more often, alternating which gets the main event spot based on what the booker's have planned about the quality and overall importance of the match.

From the G1 alone neither Fale nor Ishii have gotten title shots for pinning Okada, only Naito got a shot at the IC belt despite others having pinning Elgin, and of the people who beat Omega, only YOSHI-HASHI got a briefcase match.
but that's beyond the point, you still do main events that are different from using the same 4/5 guys all the time
But not big ones. Ishii's shot at Naito and the like felt like filler

As for the different stables, while that might be their motivation, it never plays itself out different once the bell rings.
actually it does, that's why some of the BC are all showboating, Suzuki is definitely a shooter in the ring, all LIJ are zero fucks tranquilo, most of the NJPW faces are all babyface fire when it comes to it
Totally disagree. Every match has the same "distract the ref so someone can do a chairshot" spot, whether it's Bullet Club, LIJ or Suzuki-Gun.

To an extent, you're right, but CHIKARA and LU have both taken guys whose work alone isn't particularly exciting and elevated them by telling interesting stories with them. You can say that Gabe did the same with Jimmy Jacobs in ROH and tried to do it with Thatcher this year. Heyman did it with a million guys. If you get a time machine and give Gabe the book in the AWA in 1985 I think you get a much more exciting product capable of making the fans care about more wrestlers than what Verne gave us. Look at the difference between OVW when Cornette or Heyman were booking it as opposed to when Al Snow or whoever was booking it. Storylines enable you to find and focus on your wrestlers' strengths in a way that just putting matches together doesn't.
yeah, one or two, there are surely exceptions, we could say the same with someone like Honma or Naito who were kinda irrelevant some time ago (great wrestlers tho), and found a way to get them over with their stories. But like with Thatcher, i just had to watch his entrance once and i wanted to see him wrestle regardless of the story, a bunch of LU guys are interesting just for being unknown luchadors in the US. CHIKARA was like this in the beginning when it was unique to see wrestling ants, ice creams, or a warlock bug, but now that there are a bunch of crabs and frogs and a million ants, you really need a good story to get them over and surely it hasn't worked as much. at least it's a 50/50 thing
I think Honma was one they lucked into. He first got over in New Japan in that G1 where he lost all of his matches, and he was only in there because he was a replacement for Ibushi, who had just gotten a concussion. He has his goofy headbutt gimmick and the fans like it. Saying that they made Honma is like saying that WWE made Tye DIllenger.
And I don't find the LU guys to be interesting just because they are relatively unknown Luchadors in the US. I care much less about these guys when you take them out of LU because in LU they feel like figures who destiny, who will have a major role t play in shaping the future.

[cero2k]

As for the different stables, while that might be their motivation, it never plays itself out different once the bell rings.
actually it does, that's why some of the BC are all showboating, Suzuki is definitely a shooter in the ring, all LIJ are zero fucks tranquilo, most of the NJPW faces are all babyface fire when it comes to it
Totally disagree. Every match has the same "distract the ref so someone can do a chairshot" spot, whether it's Bullet Club, LIJ or Suzuki-Gun.
that is the description of 90% of heels in 99% of promotions. It's like saying that every tag team match has a babyface in peril spot, or 'fighting spirit/hulking up' spots, they're just storyline mechanisms. What I will say, when it comes to big matches, there's not always interference.

I think Honma was one they lucked into. He first got over in New Japan in that G1 where he lost all of his matches, and he was only in there because he was a replacement for Ibushi, who had just gotten a concussion. He has his goofy headbutt gimmick and the fans like it. Saying that they made Honma is like saying that WWE made Tye DIllenger.
And I don't find the LU guys to be interesting just because they are relatively unknown Luchadors in the US. I care much less about these guys when you take them out of LU because in LU they feel like figures who destiny, who will have a major role t play in shaping the future.
so one less that got over by storyline

[Big Red Machine]

As for the different stables, while that might be their motivation, it never plays itself out different once the bell rings.
actually it does, that's why some of the BC are all showboating, Suzuki is definitely a shooter in the ring, all LIJ are zero fucks tranquilo, most of the NJPW faces are all babyface fire when it comes to it
Totally disagree. Every match has the same "distract the ref so someone can do a chairshot" spot, whether it's Bullet Club, LIJ or Suzuki-Gun.
that is the description of 90% of heels in 99% of promotions. It's like saying that every tag team match has a babyface in peril spot, or 'fighting spirit/hulking up' spots, they're just storyline mechanisms. What I will say, when it comes to big matches, there's not always interference.
But those are things that happen in a match and have a purpose. They're "normal" wrestling spots. Yes, there is a heat and a hot tag in every tag team match, but they don't always get into it the same exact way on every match on the chair. I'm sick and tired of seeing the same exact f*cking thing on every single match involving heels in New Japan. People say places like ECW killed weapon-shots, but New Japan has managed to make them mean less than they did in ECW.

I think Honma was one they lucked into. He first got over in New Japan in that G1 where he lost all of his matches, and he was only in there because he was a replacement for Ibushi, who had just gotten a concussion. He has his goofy headbutt gimmick and the fans like it. Saying that they made Honma is like saying that WWE made Tye DIllenger.
And I don't find the LU guys to be interesting just because they are relatively unknown Luchadors in the US. I care much less about these guys when you take them out of LU because in LU they feel like figures who destiny, who will have a major role t play in shaping the future.
so one less that got over by storyline
Right. Which makes the number of guys who got over by storyline... maybe Naito (on their second try) although we don't know how much of that is Naito and how much of that is Gedo giving him mannerisms. Also I guess some credit for Omega and Okada by not beating them. And maybe Devitt for the Bullet Club. Other than that, everyone else got over with minimal assistance from the bookers. There hasn't really every been a storyline in New Japan that you can point to and say "this was what got X over" (aside from maybe the stuff with Omega at the beginning of 2016).

[cero2k]

But those are things that happen in a match and have a purpose. They're "normal" wrestling spots. Yes, there is a heat and a hot tag in every tag team match, but they don't always get into it the same exact way on every match on the chair. I'm sick and tired of seeing the same exact f*cking thing on every single match involving heels in New Japan. People say places like ECW killed weapon-shots, but New Japan has managed to make them mean less than they did in ECW.
I don't disagree that they're overusing chairshots, but you really can't blame NJPW for making chairshots irrelevant, not after what WWE or TNA or WCW did

Right. Which makes the number of guys who got over by storyline... maybe Naito (on their second try) although we don't know how much of that is Naito and how much of that is Gedo giving him mannerisms. Also I guess some credit for Omega and Okada by not beating them. And maybe Devitt for the Bullet Club. Other than that, everyone else got over with minimal assistance from the bookers. There hasn't really every been a storyline in New Japan that you can point to and say "this was what got X over" (aside from maybe the stuff with Omega at the beginning of 2016).
yeah, that's what i was saying, but i think this is not a NJPW thing, just an overall wrestling thing

[Big Red Machine]

But those are things that happen in a match and have a purpose. They're "normal" wrestling spots. Yes, there is a heat and a hot tag in every tag team match, but they don't always get into it the same exact way on every match on the chair. I'm sick and tired of seeing the same exact f*cking thing on every single match involving heels in New Japan. People say places like ECW killed weapon-shots, but New Japan has managed to make them mean less than they did in ECW.
I don't disagree that they're overusing chairshots, but you really can't blame NJPW for making chairshots irrelevant, not after what WWE or TNA or WCW did
Except that I actually find them to feel more irrelevant when I'm watching a New Japan match than I do when watching ECW or the Attitude Era just because in New Japan they happen the same way every time, and in most every match. In ECW or WWE (or TNA) my reaction is "he's using a chair! Cool!" In New Japan it's G-d damn it their doing that same chair spot again. It doesn't feel like any more significant than a wrist lock.

Right. Which makes the number of guys who got over by storyline... maybe Naito (on their second try) although we don't know how much of that is Naito and how much of that is Gedo giving him mannerisms. Also I guess some credit for Omega and Okada by not beating them. And maybe Devitt for the Bullet Club. Other than that, everyone else got over with minimal assistance from the bookers. There hasn't really every been a storyline in New Japan that you can point to and say "this was what got X over" (aside from maybe the stuff with Omega at the beginning of 2016).
yeah, that's what i was saying, but i think this is not a NJPW thing, just an overall wrestling thing
No. The only guy this has happened with in ROH is Dalton Castle (I guess you can argue that it elevated the Bucks to another level, but they were already over in ROH before Bullet Club. In fact, the whole reason that no one is getting over in ROH anymore is because Delirious isn't giving guys like Rush or Dijak (or ACH while he was around) anything to do so no one has any reason to care about them. It's not coincidence that the only guys who really feel like they've moved up the card over the past two years are Page and Silas- i.e. the guys who have been given actual storylines on a regular basis.
Certainly no one in Evolve or NOAH has gotten over without some kind of story. CHIKARA doesn't count because in CHIKARA that is part of the design. It happens in PWG, although you could make the argument that PWG's whole strategy is to just hope that this happens. I don't think anyone in TNA has gotten over by accident, though I guess you could argue the Hardys, but like a CHIKARA I would say that this was the booker- in this case Matt- banking on getting over via quirkiness.

[cero2k]

Except that I actually find them to feel more irrelevant when I'm watching a New Japan match than I do when watching ECW or the Attitude Era just because in New Japan they happen the same way every time, and in most every match. In ECW or WWE (or TNA) my reaction is "he's using a chair! Cool!" In New Japan it's G-d damn it their doing that same chair spot again. It doesn't feel like any more significant than a wrist lock.
to each their own then, i feel the way about chairs and cheating in american promotions, i don't see them as anything special anymore, just part of the typical match.


No. The only guy this has happened with in ROH is Dalton Castle (I guess you can argue that it elevated the Bucks to another level, but they were already over in ROH before Bullet Club. In fact, the whole reason that no one is getting over in ROH anymore is because Delirious isn't giving guys like Rush or Dijak (or ACH while he was around) anything to do so no one has any reason to care about them. It's not coincidence that the only guys who really feel like they've moved up the card over the past two years are Page and Silas- i.e. the guys who have been given actual storylines on a regular basis.
I honestly wouldn't blame delirous on this one, ROH has some of the most generic make-a-wrestlers in the indies. Dijak and Rush have been getting push after push, but Dijak in particular is sooo boring and plain that no wonder he can't get over. Silas got over because he's a great character, huge mustache and surely he started getting over when he was paired up with another great character Beercity Bruiser and feuding with another great character Castle. Arguably Cedric, Coleman, Ferrara, Page, Joey, original Taven, they never got over with or without storylines, the only thing they had going on for them was their wrestling and thank god ROH fans appreciate workrate.

Certainly no one in Evolve or NOAH has gotten over without some kind of story.
I can't say for NOAH but surely all their top guys got over a long time ago and they mostly got over for wrestling quality and not storylines. EVOLVE i disagree, because again, most guys already came in with over gimmicks and the rest have gotten over with their wrestling. Gabe didn't get Hero, Sabre, Riddle, or Galloway over, they were already over. Thatcher and Gulak were already well known for their wrestling quality. Aside from Tracy Williams I can't think of anyone that is over based only on storytelling, and even then, Tracy is still quite unknown.

[Big Red Machine]

Except that I actually find them to feel more irrelevant when I'm watching a New Japan match than I do when watching ECW or the Attitude Era just because in New Japan they happen the same way every time, and in most every match. In ECW or WWE (or TNA) my reaction is "he's using a chair! Cool!" In New Japan it's G-d damn it their doing that same chair spot again. It doesn't feel like any more significant than a wrist lock.
to each their own then, i feel the way about chairs and cheating in american promotions, i don't see them as anything special anymore, just part of the typical match.
Which is one of the reasons I like Evolve so much. That sort of thing happens rarely enough that it always feels like matters. CHIKARA does a good job with that, too, but that's more on selling the outrage and follow-up booking, whereas in Evolve it also happens so rarely.




No. The only guy this has happened with in ROH is Dalton Castle (I guess you can argue that it elevated the Bucks to another level, but they were already over in ROH before Bullet Club. In fact, the whole reason that no one is getting over in ROH anymore is because Delirious isn't giving guys like Rush or Dijak (or ACH while he was around) anything to do so no one has any reason to care about them. It's not coincidence that the only guys who really feel like they've moved up the card over the past two years are Page and Silas- i.e. the guys who have been given actual storylines on a regular basis.
I honestly wouldn't blame delirous on this one, ROH has some of the most generic make-a-wrestlers in the indies. Dijak and Rush have been getting push after push, but Dijak in particular is sooo boring and plain that no wonder he can't get over. Silas got over because he's a great character, huge mustache and surely he started getting over when he was paired up with another great character Beercity Bruiser and feuding with another great character Castle. Arguably Cedric, Coleman, Ferrara, Page, Joey, original Taven, they never got over with or without storylines, the only thing they had going on for them was their wrestling and thank god ROH fans appreciate workrate.
I totally disagree. Dijak's not the most charismatic, but that can be (and, for a time, was) solved by giving him a manager. The real problem is that, in just two years in the company, Dijak as only been given three storylines. The first was that he always lost so Truth Martini fired him. Then he wanted to get revenge on Truth, which led to the Hose of Truth wanting to get revenge on him, which culminated in just one match with Jay Lethal that Lethal won because the Young Bucks accidentally superkicked Dijak when they were aiming for Lethal. Instead of following up on that story in any way (either feuding with Lethal or with Bullet Club- which could have led to something cool like Lethal and Dijak being forced to team up to take on the Bucks), he was then put into a storyline where he lost all the time so Prince Nana dumped him (in other words, he was in the same exact place that he was in a year ago). Winning the Top Prospect Tournament was literally the high-point of Dijak's ROH career. After those first three matches it was all downhill. Yes, Dijak isn't the most charismatic guy, but the reason he failed in ROH was because he was booked into oblivion.
Rush is headed for the same thing. Yes, he won the Top Prospect Tournament, but he hasn't done sh*t since then.
Silas start getting over when he was paired with BCB. BCB (who is a one-note joke and a terrible character) got over by being paired with Silas, who didn't start getting over until he was given his first real feud that lasted more than a few shows (i.e. with Dalton Castle). Before that Silas had had (and WON) short feuds with both Mark Briscoe and Kevin Steen but still wasn't getting over as anything more than a mid-card heel because he was never used as anything more than a mid-card heel (even in the Steen feud). This year, though, he got to feud with Castle, then feud with ACH, and then was passably well built up for a title shot that they did more to push than any other non-TV or PPV title shot in years (maybe even since Hero vs. Cole).
Cedric was sunk by always being put in either bad storylines or storylines with no follow-up that dragged on forever. His feuds with Roddy and Moose were great, but between them he had angles where was on a months-long losing streak and one where he refused to wrestle for BS reasons that never went anywhere. Cedric's issue wasn't a lack of character. He's stuff in the Moose feud was great, and he had one of the best characters ROH has had over the past few years in Veda Scott as a manager. The problem was that he never won and they never followed up on anything he did. Like Dijak and Rush and ACH and Sydal, it would often feel like he was going absolutely nowhere for six months at a time.
Coleman was a fine character and was over as an undercard babyface mentor figure. Where he went off the rails was this Cabinet bullsh*t, which is the most "character" he has had during his time in ROH. But like with Cedric, the only real storyline Caprice was given once C&C split was the Cabinet, which went literally nowhere for six months all so they could do a worked shoot and transform into yet another undercard stable that no one cares about because, despite saying a lot of things, they don't actually do anything that feels like it has a purpose.
As for the other guys you listed like Ferrara, Daddiego, and Taven didn't get over for their workrate. The first two have never been over and every single fan I've talked is of the opinion that the only reason they're on the roster is so that they can claim there are ROH Dojo graduates on the roster. Taven got over because of being paired with Truth, which gave him some personality. It was only about halfway through his TV Title reign when people began to see that he can wrestle pretty well, but there is still a large contingent of the fanbase that doesn't think he belongs on the roster because his workrate isn't ROH quality.
Page definitely got over because of storylines. Yes, workrate helped, but the first time he really got to show what he could do in ROH was Final Battle 2014 against Roddy, which was after months of storyline progression building him up to the point where you cared. That was the difference between him and Tadarius Thomas. Since then, how people perceive Page has almost completely been tied to whether or not he has a storyline going on. When he has (like feuding with Whitmer or Briscoe) people liked him. Everything since the Bullet Club turn people haven't liked because aside from the one win over Briscoe, he has been treated like a guy who is only in the stable so that the real stars don't have to get pinned.
And even if the issue was more about the guys being bland than whether or not they are involved in a storyline, Delirious is STILL the guy to blame because he's the one who decides who to bring in. Aside from Scurll, Ospreay, Cabana, Kamaitachi, and Jay White- none of whom came through ROH's dojo or tryout camps- who has came into the company that actually has personality? There's Dalton Castle, but he is a very unique gimmick. We can argue about Rush, and maybe you could say Lee & Taylor (they have an aura about them, but it's more due to their size than their personality). The only guy who even comes to mind is Jasob Kincaid, who they barely used to the point that he decided he would be used better if he signed with Gabe (and so far he has been).

Certainly no one in Evolve or NOAH has gotten over without some kind of story.
I can't say for NOAH but surely all their top guys got over a long time ago and they mostly got over for wrestling quality and not storylines. EVOLVE i disagree, because again, most guys already came in with over gimmicks and the rest have gotten over with their wrestling. Gabe didn't get Hero, Sabre, Riddle, or Galloway over, they were already over. Thatcher and Gulak were already well known for their wrestling quality. Aside from Tracy Williams I can't think of anyone that is over based only on storytelling, and even then, Tracy is still quite unknown.
NOAH at least had good title chases, though, and Suzuki-Gun got over on storytelling more than anything else because Suzuki and K.E.S. were the only ones of them consistently putting on good matches (Shelton was good but not great). I think Taniguchi got over on storytelling as well. And even with the older generation like KENTA and Nakajima and Shiozaki they were helped along by the storyline of being Kobashi or Kensuke or Misawa's proteges (whether that was a shoot or not, it was also a well-established part of the story) and Marufuji definitely made it to that next level with the whole "jr. heavyweight winning the heavyweight belt and always fighting guys who are bigger than him" angle.
As for Evolve- Darby Allin, Chris Dickinson (& Jaka), Ethan Page, Tracy Williams and Fred Yehi all qualify as guys who got over on storytelling. The Premiere Athlete Brand, too. TJP is arguable, too. Gabe also definitely booked Riddle in a way that allowed his character to shine. I don't think he feels like he has quite as much of that "this guy is about to break out" feel in 2016 if they don't do the whole thing where he is never around when the Catchpoint guys need him and Gulak always chews him out for hit and you're never sure if Riddle is full of sh*t or not when he apologizes or not.