Sting's New Gimmick!!! Yay or Nay???

[Rabid619]

This is VERY enjoyable to read.

[Big Red Machine]

This is VERY enjoyable to read.

So jump in!

[Rabid619]

This is VERY enjoyable to READ.

So jump in!

Fixed

[Serujuunin]

I have nothing to say on this topic but this:

Holy crap, this is still going on? Woooooooow.

[SONICdopeFRESH]

Charlie and Shelton had not been a relevant force in WWE as a team since 2003 (and Charlie as an individual since 2004). Yes, they had some reunions, but they didn't do much of anything. They were not big for long enough and the time that they were big for was too long ago for it to help much. Furthermore, you don't need to be a champion to draw. You just need to be on the card. The same for creating that mark-out moment.

2. Not at all. It has to be someone the fans will accept in that role (once again, see my example with Billy Gunn's jump to TNA [especially as compared with Jeff Hardy's that same year.] Just because someone is coming from a larger promotion does not mean that they can automatically be "believablely" (a very kayfabe word, which is the root of the problem here) placed in a higher spot on the card. To say that a guy coming in from a larger company can automatically be "believably" placed in a higher role in the company than they were in their previous company implies that the bigger promotion has the most talented guys, therefore a midcarder in WWE is more talented than a midcarder in TNA. This is just not true. Someone can only be placed in ANY spot on the card believably if the fans believe that person is worthy of that spot.

I think we can compare the two. ROH has tapings in MORE THAN ONE CITY! Take the amount of exposure that TNA has had in its life, compare that to the amount of exposure that ROH has had in its life (ROH is even older than TNA)...then compare the buyrates. Who is doing better, comparative to their position?

My comment about promotions that bring in ex WWE midcarders was not aimed at TNA. It was aimed at the various indies who will take WWE cast-offs, bring them in and put their belts on them in hopes of drawing. Those companies go nowhere. Now look at companies like ROH, CHIKARA, CZW, and PWG (who, despire only operating on SoCal are well-known throughout the US). They are the companies that actually grow. An ex-WWE (or any other company) guy won't draw unless the fans believe he/she deserves the spot you are giving him/her.

Goldberg became the face of WCW the company. Not of WCW the entity whose history the fans have invested their time and emotions into, which the nWo was trying to destroy, but guys like Luger were fighting to preserve. There is a difference. Once is a thing, the other is a feeling.

Bobby Roode is a great wrestler with a lot of charisma who is currently being given a crappy character to play (I used to have trouble seeing what people saw in James Storm for the same reasons). Most of the wrestling world seems to disagree with you, as many, many many people got very emotionally invested in Roode's attempt to take the belt from Kurt. You really didn't like their match from Bound For Glory?

Again, I'm not saying Russo doesn't deserve some blame... but to think that things were particularly good before he came in and that he royally screwed up despite having an advantageous position is just ridiculous.

Charlie Haas & Shelton Benjamin reuniting seemed to be running around wild all over the IWC when they were rumored to have signed with ROH again... Considering the IWC makes up most of the ROH fanbase, it MUST have been relevant. And I vividly remember everyone talking about that over here.

That's because Billy Gunn is considered washed up. A 41 year old Billy Gunn isn't going to get over as well as a 49 year old Sting, because Gunn never was on the iconic level. He was rather a participant. So people saw him & were like "what's his old a** doing here?" Same kind of thing goes for Road Dogg's Slammy Return, or Brian Christopher's terrible return. Mix all of that in with these guys ONLY having some fame during the attitude era, and little to none aftwerwards, so the fanbase has change entirely since then.

IT"S NOT ABOUT WRESTLING TALENT. It's about the magnitude of your character. Zack Ryder hasn't gotten over for his wrestling ability. He's gotten over because he put in work to make his character more noticeable. WWE's characters, even the low-mid carders, all get more glorification than any other promotions, so when they go to a diff promotion, it's like "OOOHHHHHH S********T HE'S HERE!!!" The guys are already considered superior to any other promotions. Think about it from a backwards psychology. Could Daniel Bryan come from ROH & begin as a low carder in the WWE? Yes. Now, could Kofi Kingston go from midcarding in the WWE, to lowcarding in ROH? Not realistically, because his charcter is presented as the superior wrestler just because he can put WWE in his title.

You can't because ROH just came on tv. And even still, no network is running ROH commercials to hype it up. As of right now, it JUST made the horrible CN (or whatever the channel is called now) network, during a timeslot in which many people won't be home to watch it. Yes, I have caught it a time or 8, but it has a long way to go to catch up to TNA. And don't forget TNA, no matter how s**tty we think the product is, they've made it to a level where they can bounce back & still be good. They've made it to a level where they can give people fat paychecks. ROH is not, and we can't say yet because history shows we can't predict the future for these companies.

So, are you implying people didn't get emotionally behind Golderg and that's why he wasn't the face of WCW which would lead to Hogan v. Goldberg being WCW v. NWO? Bologna.

Bobby Roode has NEVER showed an ounce of charisma. The best thing he had was being James Storm's partner, because it made him, a pretty dry person, seem somewhat entertaining. How bad is he on the mic? I give his mic skills a 3 out of 10. The only thing he can do is speak fluently. He's never been entertaining with team Canada, Beer Money, or even now as Mr. What's His Face. Seriously, I have more charisma in my left big toe than Roode has ever shown. The dude's a dud. Most of the world? This is where you go to Youtube, type in Beer Money, and read the comments below. Or hop on twitter, and search #ImpactWrestling ... It'll show most of the world is actually agreeing with me. And it was DULL. Not the match itself, but Roode has no charcter. They are pushing the wrong former member of Beer Money to the moon.

Yes there were a few flaws before he came, but he royally screwed it up & took them to the point of not turning back. They could've turned things around without him.

[SONICdopeFRESH]

Your own logic there is self-defeating. If Virgil bills himself as Virgil at conventions because that is how WWE refers to him, then why does Scott Hall bill himself as Scott Hall, not Razor Ramon? These guys bill themselves under the name that they believe they had the most success over, and thus, will be most recognizable to fans.

There is no way anyone could reasonably argue that Virgil was more successful as Vincent. Look at the matches he was involved in! He never won any titles and only had a few PPV matches his entire time in WCW! When he was in the WWF, he had a feud against TED DIBASIE as well as numerous other PPV matches. Hell... he had more PPV matches in WWF then he did in WCW, and when he left the WWF, they were only doing 5 PPVs a year!

You want a guy who has wrestled his whole life, and still continues to make a career out of it? LANCE STORM, who, as I noted before, has said that wrestling is not a sport.

You are entirely missing the point. It is a performance. Just because something is athletic does not make it a sport. Dancers need to train and stay in shape, too. Dancing is not a sport. Professional wrestling has not been a sport since the 1920's when Toots Mondt came up with the idea to take the all-too-common practice of fixing wrestling matches and string a series of fixes together in such a way to tell longer, over-arching stories that would make the fans come back to see more.

If something is pre-determined (i.e. fixed), it is an illegitimate competition... because, by virtue of the result being predetermined, it isn't really a competition. A sport must be a competition.

Of course wrestling wasn't a sport when everyone thought it was a work. It was still predetermined. If you play five rounds of a game with someone and, in the fifth round, you realize that the dice have been loaded the whole time, all five rounds of the game were unfair. Not just the one where you learned that the dice had been loaded.

What does a match in an indy do for wrestling as a whole? Danielson vs. Low Ki vs. Daniels from The Era Of Honor Begins pretty much created the style of match that got TNA so popular (as well as putting what was to become the third biggest company in the world on the map). Find me a match in WWE that has done something like that.

No it's not. Vince bought the WWE. So everything Vincent did in WCW/WWF belongs to him. By WWE calling him Virgil, is just their way in saying they want to focus more on his few months mid carding, rather than what made him "famous" as NWO's whipping boy. When you think of Vincent, you really don't think of him wearing the American flag trunks waling to that silly theme having very little success as a wrestler. You think of him as the bald guy with the glasses and skinny jeans with an NWO shirt on, getting stomped on every week. And what memorable thing did he do as Virgil in the WWE besides LOSE? Oh wait, he did nothing but LOSE in the NWO too, except he was a part of the BIGGEST FACTION EVER. Biggest faction ever > Midcarding Virgil... Which would mean Vincent > Virgil.

And as I said, what importance does lance Storm have on wrestling? About the same as Brian Christopher's return had on the crowd during his return in 2011. My example of The Road Warrior Animal holds more credibility. Animal has said it IS a sport.

You want me to define sport for you??? because this will back me up even moreso.

Taken DIRECTLY from wikipedia & checked with the free online dictionary: Sport is all forms of physical activity which, through casual or organised participation, aim to use, maintain or improve physical fitness and provide entertainment to participants.

Now with that, if you scroll down Wikipedia's definition of sports, they do mention gymnastics, and even DANCING as sports associated with art. So your whole "dancing is not a sport," becomes null & void at that point. Whether you want to say it's 50/50, not the same, I just proved it is a sport to an extent sir... Getting back to rasslin... That is the CITED DEFINITION... Shortly after, it specifically states professional wrestling being a sport, and when you click on professional wrestling, the nice definition pops up, reassuring the reader it is a combat sport, with ATHLETICS & THEATRICAL PERFORMANCE incorporated. Thus the term commonly being sports-entertainment.

But my thing is NOBODY KNOWS about the match you mentioned. You think the majority of TNA or WWE fans know that? Because I sure in the heck didn't until now, and that's coming from a casual based fan. And find another company??? Hmmm... The WWE is everyone's competition. Every little promotions wishes to see the success of the WWE someday... That's why mostly every indy star will jump ship the minute they're given a contract. Cause they know no exposure is coming out of a gym in front of 1,000 people.

[SONICdopeFRESH]

And Goldberg vs. Hogan was in Atlanta. Your point? Shouldn't that crowd have been popping for absolutely everything in Hogan vs. Goldberg, then?

Yes, water runs dry after the 9000th time you do something. Not after the first. Most of these "dream matches" don't happen more than a few times, and that is over a period of years. These matches build on each other. Watch the RVD vs. Jerry Lynn matches in order. They build on each others' story, and show that the guys in question are learning from their previous matches against each other and having to think up new moves and new counters.

People only want to see a dream match once? Are you kidding me? Have you really never finished watching a match you were really looking forward to and saying "THAT WAS SO AWESOME! I want to see those guys wrestle again!" Do you really just come out of it and say "Okay. I've seen that now."

Why should only one match have to define ___ vs. ___ ? That is antithetical to pro wrestling. Pro wrestling is designed to make you want to come back again and see the rematch.

Goldberg us a hot topic? Where? On whatever bike show he is hosting on some digital cable network?

And people won't be talking about Cena 10 years after he retires? Oh come on! You and I are here talking about Virgil 12 years after his retirement, and Virgil hasn't done sh*t since Wrestlemania VIII

Re-watch the match. From the entrance to the end of the on-air celebration. Pretty sure the were as electric as a WCW crowd has ever been. From start to finish.

Again, multiples matches make a better story... BUT it makes the meaning & impact of each match less & less. If you have ONE MATCH, it will stand out as a part of history more than you you re-do it.

With a dream match, I ONLY want to see it once. Unless it's a feud like Kane v. Taker, or Sting v. Vader, I really don't want to see it 5 times. BUT, I would def love to see Sting v. Taker... BUT only once.

Goldberg is the hot topic in this discussion man... Where the heck have you been? Not to mention, get on twitter & see how many fans talk about Goldberg. Or get on Youtube & see how many views all of Goldberg's material has.

Vincent was the man in the NWO (sarcasm)... And really, how many people are talking about Vincent today? Probably us. Because people want to forget John Cena ever existed, I doubt he'll be missed enough to care 10 years after he leaves, aside minor smalltalk.

[Big Red Machine]

Charlie and Shelton had not been a relevant force in WWE as a team since 2003 (and Charlie as an individual since 2004). Yes, they had some reunions, but they didn't do much of anything. They were not big for long enough and the time that they were big for was too long ago for it to help much. Furthermore, you don't need to be a champion to draw. You just need to be on the card. The same for creating that mark-out moment.

2. Not at all. It has to be someone the fans will accept in that role (once again, see my example with Billy Gunn's jump to TNA [especially as compared with Jeff Hardy's that same year.] Just because someone is coming from a larger promotion does not mean that they can automatically be "believablely" (a very kayfabe word, which is the root of the problem here) placed in a higher spot on the card. To say that a guy coming in from a larger company can automatically be "believably" placed in a higher role in the company than they were in their previous company implies that the bigger promotion has the most talented guys, therefore a midcarder in WWE is more talented than a midcarder in TNA. This is just not true. Someone can only be placed in ANY spot on the card believably if the fans believe that person is worthy of that spot.

I think we can compare the two. ROH has tapings in MORE THAN ONE CITY! Take the amount of exposure that TNA has had in its life, compare that to the amount of exposure that ROH has had in its life (ROH is even older than TNA)...then compare the buyrates. Who is doing better, comparative to their position?

My comment about promotions that bring in ex WWE midcarders was not aimed at TNA. It was aimed at the various indies who will take WWE cast-offs, bring them in and put their belts on them in hopes of drawing. Those companies go nowhere. Now look at companies like ROH, CHIKARA, CZW, and PWG (who, despire only operating on SoCal are well-known throughout the US). They are the companies that actually grow. An ex-WWE (or any other company) guy won't draw unless the fans believe he/she deserves the spot you are giving him/her.

Goldberg became the face of WCW the company. Not of WCW the entity whose history the fans have invested their time and emotions into, which the nWo was trying to destroy, but guys like Luger were fighting to preserve. There is a difference. Once is a thing, the other is a feeling.

Bobby Roode is a great wrestler with a lot of charisma who is currently being given a crappy character to play (I used to have trouble seeing what people saw in James Storm for the same reasons). Most of the wrestling world seems to disagree with you, as many, many many people got very emotionally invested in Roode's attempt to take the belt from Kurt. You really didn't like their match from Bound For Glory?

Again, I'm not saying Russo doesn't deserve some blame... but to think that things were particularly good before he came in and that he royally screwed up despite having an advantageous position is just ridiculous.

Charlie Haas & Shelton Benjamin reuniting seemed to be running around wild all over the IWC when they were rumored to have signed with ROH again... Considering the IWC makes up most of the ROH fanbase, it MUST have been relevant. And I vividly remember everyone talking about that over here.

That's because Billy Gunn is considered washed up. A 41 year old Billy Gunn isn't going to get over as well as a 49 year old Sting, because Gunn never was on the iconic level. He was rather a participant. So people saw him & were like "what's his old a** doing here?" Same kind of thing goes for Road Dogg's Slammy Return, or Brian Christopher's terrible return. Mix all of that in with these guys ONLY having some fame during the attitude era, and little to none aftwerwards, so the fanbase has change entirely since then.

IT"S NOT ABOUT WRESTLING TALENT. It's about the magnitude of your character. Zack Ryder hasn't gotten over for his wrestling ability. He's gotten over because he put in work to make his character more noticeable. WWE's characters, even the low-mid carders, all get more glorification than any other promotions, so when they go to a diff promotion, it's like "OOOHHHHHH S********T HE'S HERE!!!" The guys are already considered superior to any other promotions. Think about it from a backwards psychology. Could Daniel Bryan come from ROH & begin as a low carder in the WWE? Yes. Now, could Kofi Kingston go from midcarding in the WWE, to lowcarding in ROH? Not realistically, because his charcter is presented as the superior wrestler just because he can put WWE in his title.

You can't because ROH just came on tv. And even still, no network is running ROH commercials to hype it up. As of right now, it JUST made the horrible CN (or whatever the channel is called now) network, during a timeslot in which many people won't be home to watch it. Yes, I have caught it a time or 8, but it has a long way to go to catch up to TNA. And don't forget TNA, no matter how s**tty we think the product is, they've made it to a level where they can bounce back & still be good. They've made it to a level where they can give people fat paychecks. ROH is not, and we can't say yet because history shows we can't predict the future for these companies.

So, are you implying people didn't get emotionally behind Golderg and that's why he wasn't the face of WCW which would lead to Hogan v. Goldberg being WCW v. NWO? Bologna.

Bobby Roode has NEVER showed an ounce of charisma. The best thing he had was being James Storm's partner, because it made him, a pretty dry person, seem somewhat entertaining. How bad is he on the mic? I give his mic skills a 3 out of 10. The only thing he can do is speak fluently. He's never been entertaining with team Canada, Beer Money, or even now as Mr. What's His Face. Seriously, I have more charisma in my left big toe than Roode has ever shown. The dude's a dud. Most of the world? This is where you go to Youtube, type in Beer Money, and read the comments below. Or hop on twitter, and search #ImpactWrestling ... It'll show most of the world is actually agreeing with me. And it was DULL. Not the match itself, but Roode has no charcter. They are pushing the wrong former member of Beer Money to the moon.

Yes there were a few flaws before he came, but he royally screwed it up & took them to the point of not turning back. They could've turned things around without him.

But the reason that the IWC was so excited that Haas & Benjamin were going to be reuniting and were going to be coming to ROH wasn't because they were former WWE guys. It was because they were guys who the ROH fanbase thought had a lot to offer the company, and would be phoenomenal additions to the roster. The ROH fanbase has gotten just as excited over guys like Tyler Black, Eddie Kingston, and (back in 2002) Samoa Joe, CM Punk, Donovan Morgan, & AJ Styles for the same reason. They had seen them other places and thought they would put on awesome matches in ROH. It is the same reason people get so excited when Mike Quackenbush shows up for a one-off appearance in just about any company.

Yes. People saw Billy Gunn as being washed up, even though the guy could still put on a decent match. Which is exactly my point when I say that you can't book someone in a spot if the fans don't think they are good enough. Billy Gunn was a WWE midcarder who came to a smaller promotion and was put at the top of the card, and the fans didn't accept it. Compare that with Anderson, who the fans did accept in that role because they thought he deserved to be there. Same goes with Joe and Nigel when they came in to TNA from a smaller promotion.

There is a HUGE difference between getting exposure and getting over. Yes, Ryder is getting over despite not being an amazing wrestler... but that is because Ryder has character. Most other WWE mid-carders don't. Ryder didn't get over when he was on TV. He got over when he was off TV, and was establishing his character on the internet. The same thing happened with Grizzly Redwood. Nobody gave a rat's ass about Mitch Franklin. Then he creates a character and people get behind it.

Take a guy like Sonjay Dutt. Sonjay has had the exposure. He is a good worker and has worked in TNA. Why didn't he get over? No character. The guys you are talking about are only considered "superior" to local, homegrown guys in the small, backwater indies that don't go anywhere. Look at all of the major indies. ROH, CZW, PWG, CHIKARA, DGUSA. These companies make and push their own stars, rather than bring in WWE/TNA/WCW/ECW midcarders and put the belt on them just because. And no, it doesn't draw. If it did, those other companies would actually be doing well. But they aren't.

Dragon can't come in on top of the WWE? His first night on TV, he had a competitive match with the World Heavyweight Champion. Then he lost a bunch of matches (it was implied that he was losing on purpose), but was still voted as the top rookie. When he came back, he main evented Summer Slam, then took the US Title from The Miz. That is midcard at least. Hell... Nigel McGuinness DID IT in TNA! His first feud in the company was the semi-main event of his first two PPVs (only down a World Title feud involving AJ, Daniels and Joe) against KURT ANGLE. Look at Brock Lesnar. He came from nowhere and was WWE Champion within five months of his debut, having beaten both Hogan and The Rock.

Could Kofi come into ROH high on the card? Ish. Does having been in WWE help him with that? A bit. But it is mostly due to the fans being willing to accept him in that spot because he has the talent. If Kofi came to ROH, he probably wouldn't be much higher up on the card that TJP until he proves himself. His character is not presented as being a better wrestler simply because he has worked for WWE. The Great Khali has been a World Heavyweight Champion in WWE. Is he a better wrestler than Rhett Titus, who has never been a top champion anywhere? Hell no!

TNA didn't do it on their own. They have been operating off of money from Panda Energy since late 2002. TNA hasn't made a profit in a long time (since at least 2008). I'm not saying that people weren't behind him, and I'm not saying that he wasn't the face of WCW the brand-name. But they weren't behind him for the same reasons they were behind Sting and Luger. The fans were behind Sting and Luger because they, the major babyfaces in company history, were fighting to rid us of the evil nWo. Hogan was the top dog in the nWo, so getting rid of them required taking his title. Goldberg wasn't fighting for WCW or its fans. Goldberg was fighting for Goldberg. If Hogan hadn't had the belt, Goldberg wouldn't have gone after him. If Hogan hadn't had the belt, Sting and Luger still would have gone after him because he was nWo.

Have you seen any of his promos against Flair? Any of his promos from back in 2008-2009? The man is amazing on the mic. If anything dulled him, it was being saddled with a partner whose entire character was restricted to low-brow "huh huh. I drink beer" jokes and a moronic catchphrase. And most of the wrestling fans on youtube were extremely behind Roode going into BFG and were pissed as hell when he didn't win.

Yes, Russo and Ferrara didn't do too well in their 6 months, but Bischoff wouldn't have been smart enough to save the company, and things wouldn't have gone much better if Bischoff had stayed in power.

[Big Red Machine]

Your own logic there is self-defeating. If Virgil bills himself as Virgil at conventions because that is how WWE refers to him, then why does Scott Hall bill himself as Scott Hall, not Razor Ramon? These guys bill themselves under the name that they believe they had the most success over, and thus, will be most recognizable to fans.

There is no way anyone could reasonably argue that Virgil was more successful as Vincent. Look at the matches he was involved in! He never won any titles and only had a few PPV matches his entire time in WCW! When he was in the WWF, he had a feud against TED DIBASIE as well as numerous other PPV matches. Hell... he had more PPV matches in WWF then he did in WCW, and when he left the WWF, they were only doing 5 PPVs a year!

You want a guy who has wrestled his whole life, and still continues to make a career out of it? LANCE STORM, who, as I noted before, has said that wrestling is not a sport.

You are entirely missing the point. It is a performance. Just because something is athletic does not make it a sport. Dancers need to train and stay in shape, too. Dancing is not a sport. Professional wrestling has not been a sport since the 1920's when Toots Mondt came up with the idea to take the all-too-common practice of fixing wrestling matches and string a series of fixes together in such a way to tell longer, over-arching stories that would make the fans come back to see more.

If something is pre-determined (i.e. fixed), it is an illegitimate competition... because, by virtue of the result being predetermined, it isn't really a competition. A sport must be a competition.

Of course wrestling wasn't a sport when everyone thought it was a work. It was still predetermined. If you play five rounds of a game with someone and, in the fifth round, you realize that the dice have been loaded the whole time, all five rounds of the game were unfair. Not just the one where you learned that the dice had been loaded.

What does a match in an indy do for wrestling as a whole? Danielson vs. Low Ki vs. Daniels from The Era Of Honor Begins pretty much created the style of match that got TNA so popular (as well as putting what was to become the third biggest company in the world on the map). Find me a match in WWE that has done something like that.

No it's not. Vince bought the WWE. So everything Vincent did in WCW/WWF belongs to him. By WWE calling him Virgil, is just their way in saying they want to focus more on his few months mid carding, rather than what made him "famous" as NWO's whipping boy. When you think of Vincent, you really don't think of him wearing the American flag trunks waling to that silly theme having very little success as a wrestler. You think of him as the bald guy with the glasses and skinny jeans with an NWO shirt on, getting stomped on every week. And what memorable thing did he do as Virgil in the WWE besides LOSE? Oh wait, he did nothing but LOSE in the NWO too, except he was a part of the BIGGEST FACTION EVER. Biggest faction ever > Midcarding Virgil... Which would mean Vincent > Virgil.

And as I said, what importance does lance Storm have on wrestling? About the same as Brian Christopher's return had on the crowd during his return in 2011. My example of The Road Warrior Animal holds more credibility. Animal has said it IS a sport.

You want me to define sport for you??? because this will back me up even moreso.

Taken DIRECTLY from wikipedia & checked with the free online dictionary: Sport is all forms of physical activity which, through casual or organised participation, aim to use, maintain or improve physical fitness and provide entertainment to participants.

Now with that, if you scroll down Wikipedia's definition of sports, they do mention gymnastics, and even DANCING as sports associated with art. So your whole "dancing is not a sport," becomes null & void at that point. Whether you want to say it's 50/50, not the same, I just proved it is a sport to an extent sir... Getting back to rasslin... That is the CITED DEFINITION... Shortly after, it specifically states professional wrestling being a sport, and when you click on professional wrestling, the nice definition pops up, reassuring the reader it is a combat sport, with ATHLETICS & THEATRICAL PERFORMANCE incorporated. Thus the term commonly being sports-entertainment.

But my thing is NOBODY KNOWS about the match you mentioned. You think the majority of TNA or WWE fans know that? Because I sure in the heck didn't until now, and that's coming from a casual based fan. And find another company??? Hmmm... The WWE is everyone's competition. Every little promotions wishes to see the success of the WWE someday... That's why mostly every indy star will jump ship the minute they're given a contract. Cause they know no exposure is coming out of a gym in front of 1,000 people.

The people who go to these conventions are not the sort of WWE indoctrinated fans who don't know anything that Vince hasn't told them. They know who Virgil is, and they know that he was also Vincent and Shane. What did Virgil do in the WWF? Let's see... He beat Ted Dibiase at Wrestlemania VII, then took Dibiase's custom title belt from him at Summer Slam. That is a lot bigger than anything he did in the nWo.

So what if it was the biggest faction ever? (and Immortal is giving them a run for their money, btw) Being bigger does not, by default, make something better. The nWo, as a faction, was only successful (from a booking POV, not a kayfabe one) in acting as a roadblock for Hogan's challengers. The Four Horsemen were successful in both acting as a roadblock and in making new stars.

You have got to be kidding me. I give you Lance Storm (generall considered to be one of the most technically sound workers ever), you say "what has he ever done?" (completely ignoring his multiple championships in multiple promotions: He is one of the few men to win titles in each of the big 3 while those companies were under their own control). So I give you Chris Jericho, again considered to be one of the best workers ever, and a man who would have achieved a lot more accolades if not for the politics in WCW, and you say "he doesn't really care about wrestling." But Ricc Flair does? If Ric Flair cared about wrestling as much as those guys, he would be training new wrestlers (you know, like Lance is) and helping get fledgling promotions on their feet by using his knowledge of the business to help them (again, like Lance is with PWA) not hogging the spotlight and trying to rip off indy companies, and when he did wrestle, he would try to make sure that the match was actually GOOD, rather than just blading to make up for the fact that he is way past his prime.

Once again, your example with the Road Warriors is the least credible example possible! It was PART OF THE SHOW. That is like watching The West Wing and hearing Jed Bartlett say that he is the President of the United States... and then you actually believe that Martin Sheen in the President of the United States!

The wikipeadia article mentions dancesport, which is competitive.

You need to read the article more carefully:

Similarly, there are other activities that have elements of sport and art in their execution, such as bodybuilding, free running, martial arts, professional wrestling, performance art, yoga, dressage, and culinary arts.

It has elements of sport in it. It is not a sport itself.

From the wikipedia article on pro wrestling:

Professional wrestling (often shortened pro wrestling, or simply wrestling) is a mode of spectacle, combining athletics and theatrical performance.[1] It takes the form of events, held by touring companies, which mimic a title match combat sport. This unique form of sport portrayed is fundamentally based on classical and "catch" wrestling, with modern additions of striking attacks, strength-based holds and throws, and acrobatic maneuvers; much of these derive from the influence of various international martial arts.

Whether or not they know about the match is irrelevant! It is what the match did for the business that matters! Most people don't know about the blow-off to Bloodfield vs. Rossi from 1937. But that doesn't mean that surrounding a ring with chicken wire to keep the competitors in and everyone else out wasn't important to the history of wrestling.

People don't jump for the exposure. They jump for the money. Indies rarely have the money to pay well, and a guy has to make a living. If they could, all of these guys who jump to WWE would also wrestle on the indies, but WWE won't let them.

[Big Red Machine]

And Goldberg vs. Hogan was in Atlanta. Your point? Shouldn't that crowd have been popping for absolutely everything in Hogan vs. Goldberg, then?

Yes, water runs dry after the 9000th time you do something. Not after the first. Most of these "dream matches" don't happen more than a few times, and that is over a period of years. These matches build on each other. Watch the RVD vs. Jerry Lynn matches in order. They build on each others' story, and show that the guys in question are learning from their previous matches against each other and having to think up new moves and new counters.

People only want to see a dream match once? Are you kidding me? Have you really never finished watching a match you were really looking forward to and saying "THAT WAS SO AWESOME! I want to see those guys wrestle again!" Do you really just come out of it and say "Okay. I've seen that now."

Why should only one match have to define ___ vs. ___ ? That is antithetical to pro wrestling. Pro wrestling is designed to make you want to come back again and see the rematch.

Goldberg us a hot topic? Where? On whatever bike show he is hosting on some digital cable network?

And people won't be talking about Cena 10 years after he retires? Oh come on! You and I are here talking about Virgil 12 years after his retirement, and Virgil hasn't done sh*t since Wrestlemania VIII

Re-watch the match. From the entrance to the end of the on-air celebration. Pretty sure the were as electric as a WCW crowd has ever been. From start to finish.

Again, multiples matches make a better story... BUT it makes the meaning & impact of each match less & less. If you have ONE MATCH, it will stand out as a part of history more than you you re-do it.

With a dream match, I ONLY want to see it once. Unless it's a feud like Kane v. Taker, or Sting v. Vader, I really don't want to see it 5 times. BUT, I would def love to see Sting v. Taker... BUT only once.

Goldberg is the hot topic in this discussion man... Where the heck have you been? Not to mention, get on twitter & see how many fans talk about Goldberg. Or get on Youtube & see how many views all of Goldberg's material has.

Vincent was the man in the NWO (sarcasm)... And really, how many people are talking about Vincent today? Probably us. Because people want to forget John Cena ever existed, I doubt he'll be missed enough to care 10 years after he leaves, aside minor smalltalk.

The crowd was hot in the beginning, then died down as the match went on, then only got hot again when Goldberg kicked out after the leg drops (which was the last thing before the finish). That was nothing compared to Cena vs. Punk. The crowd barely cared when Hogan started hitting Goldberg with a chair (likely due to everyone wondering why the hell there was no DQ)

You can easily have two legendary matches. Look at the Ali vs. Frazier fights. They had two legendary fights and one okay fight. The fight that was only okay wasn't as good as the other two because it just plain wasn't as exciting as the other two (it was the second fight that wasn't as good- the first and third were legendary, so it wasn't the whole "we've seen this before" that hurt the second fight).

A dream match is called a dream match because it is something we never thought we'd see, and something it is generally assumed that we will never see again (due to one guy's semi-retirement or to the rarity of a certain wrestler appearing in a certain promotion for travel/financial/personal reasons). Joe vs. Kobashi was a dream match. Quack vs. Liger was a dream match. Dudleyz vs. Steiners was a dream match. Rock vs. Hogan was a dream match. Rock vs. Cena is a dream match. Two guys in the same promotion (especially the current world champion and a young upstart main-event babyface) are not supposed to be dream match! Goldberg vs. Hogan should have been a feud! But it wasn't (in part because the match wasn't good enough to garner enough interest in a rematch). The fact that it wasn't feud is exactly what I am talking about when I say that Bischoff was a crappy booker and that WCW had problems LONG before Russo came in.

Yes. And this is THE ONLY match of Goldberg's that people talk about, and in the almost three years since I have been on internet wrestling forums, this is the first time Goldberg has ever been discussed in anything more than a passing manner, or as a name on a list.

[Big Red Machine]

As far was the discussion about Bobby Roode is concerned, I was reading an old thread and just found the following:

From the (*Spoiler* on a Major Title Change at TNA iMPACT Tapings) thread.

To me, POPE has IT. Robert Roode, has IT.

[Big Red Machine]

Daniel Bryan won't get over, you say?

Did you see last night's Raw? There were both "YES!" and "DANIEL BRYAN!" chants during just about every segment.

[SONICdopeFRESH]

Daniel Bryan won't get over, you say?

Did you see last night's Raw? There were both "YES!" and "DANIEL BRYAN!" chants during just about every segment.

Holy crap forgot about this... I think I left for a bit... Was this over the winter???? I say we continue this in 5... 4... 3... 2... 1.

Honestly, Daniel Bryan hasn't gotten over... Let's be real, it was moreso for the crap they pulled at Mania. Now, granted I'm not a fan of Bryan's, I will give credit where credit is due. He is a good wrestler. I seriously wanted to see him & Sheamus work magic because I felt they could... And then Sheamus win cleanly. The boo's for Sheamus were because it almost felt like he was "given," the title the way they had him win it. I don't think all those YES chants would have been there if they engaged in a real match.

BUT, I did see about 10-15 YES signs up front at Mania, which is good AND bad. I do question whether or not this prompts a face turn for him since he is generating more cheers than boo's especially thanks to the Mania stunt, or if he's good enough to draw boo's again.

[Big Red Machine]

Daniel Bryan won't get over, you say?

Did you see last night's Raw? There were both "YES!" and "DANIEL BRYAN!" chants during just about every segment.

Holy crap forgot about this... I think I left for a bit... Was this over the winter???? I say we continue this in 5... 4... 3... 2... 1.

Honestly, Daniel Bryan hasn't gotten over... Let's be real, it was moreso for the crap they pulled at Mania. Now, granted I'm not a fan of Bryan's, I will give credit where credit is due. He is a good wrestler. I seriously wanted to see him & Sheamus work magic because I felt they could... And then Sheamus win cleanly. The boo's for Sheamus were because it almost felt like he was "given," the title the way they had him win it. I don't think all those YES chants would have been there if they engaged in a real match.

BUT, I did see about 10-15 YES signs up front at Mania, which is good AND bad. I do question whether or not this prompts a face turn for him since he is generating more cheers than boo's especially thanks to the Mania stunt, or if he's good enough to draw boo's again.

The fact that the fans care enough to chant his name and catchphrase THE ENTIRE NIGHT, despite the fact that he was only on for a few seconds that night is proof that he is over. They interrupted a freakin' ROCK PROMO.

It will be hard for him to get booed again (and, at this point, while it would be easy to book, having him turn face and do all of the required things to redeem himself such as be nice to AJ, it would feel like a cop-out), but Dragon hasn't even scratched the surface of his ability to be a complete and total douche in the ring in WWE. He hasn't used "I have till five!" yet. He hasn't done the standard "don't tell me how to wrestle" type-stuff yet, and if he started doing his stuff with the ring announcer, that would be heel gold.

[SONICdopeFRESH]

Daniel Bryan won't get over, you say?

Did you see last night's Raw? There were both "YES!" and "DANIEL BRYAN!" chants during just about every segment.

Holy crap forgot about this... I think I left for a bit... Was this over the winter???? I say we continue this in 5... 4... 3... 2... 1.

Honestly, Daniel Bryan hasn't gotten over... Let's be real, it was moreso for the crap they pulled at Mania. Now, granted I'm not a fan of Bryan's, I will give credit where credit is due. He is a good wrestler. I seriously wanted to see him & Sheamus work magic because I felt they could... And then Sheamus win cleanly. The boo's for Sheamus were because it almost felt like he was "given," the title the way they had him win it. I don't think all those YES chants would have been there if they engaged in a real match.

BUT, I did see about 10-15 YES signs up front at Mania, which is good AND bad. I do question whether or not this prompts a face turn for him since he is generating more cheers than boo's especially thanks to the Mania stunt, or if he's good enough to draw boo's again.

The fact that the fans care enough to chant his name and catchphrase THE ENTIRE NIGHT, despite the fact that he was only on for a few seconds that night is proof that he is over. They interrupted a freakin' ROCK PROMO.

It will be hard for him to get booed again (and, at this point, while it would be easy to book, having him turn face and do all of the required things to redeem himself such as be nice to AJ, it would feel like a cop-out), but Dragon hasn't even scratched the surface of his ability to be a complete and total douche in the ring in WWE. He hasn't used "I have till five!" yet. He hasn't done the standard "don't tell me how to wrestle" type-stuff yet, and if he started doing his stuff with the ring announcer, that would be heel gold.

I mean heck, I wanted to join, not because I thought he was over, but because you don't do that with the heavyweight title match. I was really looking forward to seeing those two work together. But they scrapped it... For the 2nd year in a row, we did NOT see Sheamus v. Bryan at Mania (technically yes, but not really). Heck, even the house we were at was outraged because I honestly thought that match could've been 2nd best on the card with the two's talent. He hasn't done much yet with his character to be over quite yet. It's still unclear & somewhat in development. He can either become gradually the biggest heel next to Cody, or as you said, the easy cop out face turn. But IF, they choose to keep him heel, I honestly don't want to see just the "I have til 5" approach. Give me something new.

[Big Red Machine]

Holy crap forgot about this... I think I left for a bit... Was this over the winter???? I say we continue this in 5... 4... 3... 2... 1.

Honestly, Daniel Bryan hasn't gotten over... Let's be real, it was moreso for the crap they pulled at Mania. Now, granted I'm not a fan of Bryan's, I will give credit where credit is due. He is a good wrestler. I seriously wanted to see him & Sheamus work magic because I felt they could... And then Sheamus win cleanly. The boo's for Sheamus were because it almost felt like he was "given," the title the way they had him win it. I don't think all those YES chants would have been there if they engaged in a real match.

BUT, I did see about 10-15 YES signs up front at Mania, which is good AND bad. I do question whether or not this prompts a face turn for him since he is generating more cheers than boo's especially thanks to the Mania stunt, or if he's good enough to draw boo's again.

The fact that the fans care enough to chant his name and catchphrase THE ENTIRE NIGHT, despite the fact that he was only on for a few seconds that night is proof that he is over. They interrupted a freakin' ROCK PROMO.

It will be hard for him to get booed again (and, at this point, while it would be easy to book, having him turn face and do all of the required things to redeem himself such as be nice to AJ, it would feel like a cop-out), but Dragon hasn't even scratched the surface of his ability to be a complete and total douche in the ring in WWE. He hasn't used "I have till five!" yet. He hasn't done the standard "don't tell me how to wrestle" type-stuff yet, and if he started doing his stuff with the ring announcer, that would be heel gold.

I mean heck, I wanted to join, not because I thought he was over, but because you don't do that with the heavyweight title match. I was really looking forward to seeing those two work together. But they scrapped it... For the 2nd year in a row, we did NOT see Sheamus v. Bryan at Mania (technically yes, but not really). Heck, even the house we were at was outraged because I honestly thought that match could've been 2nd best on the card with the two's talent. He hasn't done much yet with his character to be over quite yet. It's still unclear & somewhat in development. He can either become gradually the biggest heel next to Cody, or as you said, the easy cop out face turn. But IF, they choose to keep him heel, I honestly don't want to see just the "I have til 5" approach. Give me something new.[/quote]

Not the goofy 2009 "I have till five." The absolute jackass 2006 "I have till five" where he would lock in something illegal like a fish hook, the ref would get to four, Dragon would break the hold, tell the ref he had till five, then lock in THE SAME EXACT MOVE!

[SONICdopeFRESH]

Not the goofy 2009 "I have till five." The absolute jackass 2006 "I have till five" where he would lock in something illegal like a fish hook, the ref would get to four, Dragon would break the hold, tell the ref he had till five, then lock in THE SAME EXACT MOVE!

Ahhhhhh that. He does that, and he will be my older godbrother's favorite wrestler. Always said it would be hilarious to see a wrestler do that... I do think that would probably be the best way to keep him heel. Because right now after Mania, honestly both Bryan & Sheamus I'd say are tweeners.

[Big Red Machine]

Not the goofy 2009 "I have till five." The absolute jackass 2006 "I have till five" where he would lock in something illegal like a fish hook, the ref would get to four, Dragon would break the hold, tell the ref he had till five, then lock in THE SAME EXACT MOVE!

Ahhhhhh that. He does that, and he will be my older godbrother's favorite wrestler. Always said it would be hilarious to see a wrestler do that... I do think that would probably be the best way to keep him heel. Because right now after Mania, honestly both Bryan & Sheamus I'd say are tweeners.

Grrr. I hate that definition of "tweener." A tweener is NOT a heel or babyface who gets the opposite reaction. Being a tweener (like being a babyface or a heel) has to do with your actions and motivations.

And I don't think Sheamus is going to get booed anymore.

[SONICdopeFRESH]

Grrr. I hate that definition of "tweener." A tweener is NOT a heel or babyface who gets the opposite reaction. Being a tweener (like being a babyface or a heel) has to do with your actions and motivations.

And I don't think Sheamus is going to get booed anymore.

Ehhh... Kind of want to say it's someone who gets that 50/50 reaction based off of events that make their charcter progess but...Fair enough. Although something tells me we are looking at his character changing. And the possibility that they'll point out the Sheamus v. Bryan at Mania was snubbed out 2 years in a row now.